[Hi-Finthen]

Musicality as an art of design and implimentation rather than exclusivity of parts choice as well as synergy between components, very well maybe why we prefer what it is we like when we hear it, rather than absolutes as to how it's achieved, perhaps

 

[dmk005]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi-Finthen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Musicality as an art of design and implimentation rather than exclusivity of parts choice as well as synergy between components, very well maybe why we prefer what it is we like when we hear it, rather than absolutes as to how it's achieved, perhaps

Well said.

 

[sinsiang]

Spritzer, just curious, for your otl what output tubes? OTL has limited range though.

siang

 

[Patu]

But wait a second. Where did those night and day differences disappear, which I've read about so many times on Head-Fi? Could it be that the difference actually isn't that dramatic?

I've only compared balanced to single-ended with Lavry DA10. HD650 balanced vs. single-ended. Cables were balanced stock cable and the basic stock cable. The difference was so small that it was almost nonexistent. There was slightly more bass with balanced 650 but nothing else was different. Of course this is the most entry level balanced configuration you can get but still I expected a clear difference.

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinsiang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Spritzer, just curious, for your otl what output tubes? OTL has limited range though. siang

With crappy dynamics you are bound to a select few tubes but in an electrostatic amp you can use whatever you want. I'm going with 845's for my assault at the high end but I'm also sketching some other, less dramatic, designs. I'd really like an amp based on a quad of 45's.

 

[sinsiang]

Spritzer, Good luck

Patu, you should try differnt setup, as when the output from the larvy after the i/v are balanced, it is just converting the balnced signal to se. So that is why you are hearing the small differnces.
Try more stuff, you will know what you like in the end. But personally I think the most impact of push pull is the bass and the clean sound or should I say clinical to put it in a rough saying.
There are exceptions and ultimately it is all in the implematation.

siang

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinsiang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Spritzer, Good luck

I'll need it. Experienced designers don't want to come close to a direct drive 845 amp as they are really, really scary and dangerous.

 

[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinsiang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Patu, you should try differnt setup, as when the output from the larvy after the i/v are balanced, it is just converting the balnced signal to se. So that is why you are hearing the small differnces. Try more stuff, you will know what you like in the end. But personally I think the most impact of push pull is the bass and the clean sound or should I say clinical to put it in a rough saying. There are exceptions and ultimately it is all in the implematation.

Yes I know my experience about this subject is lacking. I was just generally questioning these "night and day" -differences people seem to hear. It's interesting to read about it.

 

[vcoheda]

.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes I know my experience about this subject is lacking. I was just generally questioning these "night and day" -differences people seem to hear. It's interesting to read about it.

there clearly is a difference in terms of sound between SE and Bal. i don't think this is debatable. and if someone can't detect the differences, then i question their listening (or critical listening) abilities. whether those differences are better or an improvement, i suppose, could be subjective. in my experience, Bal will yield better instrument separation, enhanced detail, better bass response, and an overall fuller sound. in contrast, when listening to music SE, the presentation could be characterized as more unified/coherent (because of the smaller sound stage) and maybe more soothing/relaxing - a general less intense experience - due to a lack of pronounced details or effects. i prefer Bal but do not think SE sounds bad and maybe there are some genres or recordings - i am thinking about very separated left and right channels - where SE would be preferred.

 

[euclid]

its nice to see that this is finally being discussed. ive done some substantial balanced vs. single ended testing with both the GS-X and Apache, i will say with 100% certainty that while functioning as preamps to my speakers they sound better accross the board in balanced configuration.

Meridian G08
Grover S balanced
Headamp GSX / RSA Apache
Grover S Balanced
PassLabs Aleph 30
Zu Druid/mini method

i have also noticed the most dramatic changes regarding source testing while listening through the Druids, the G08 is truely incredible and offers a level of depth and refinement that honor its Meridian lineage and hype. i have much more trouble appreciating the G08 strengths with headphones, on such a smaller stage a more forward and "dynamic" sound can work better because it is harder to differentiate an unrefined sloppy source, instead they simply come accross as more involving.

with headphones balanced operation is a mixed bag and different headphones will respond differently to being driven balanced, plus particular music plays an important part. my generalization is that soundstage expands in size but not always depth, and contrary to popular belief imaging does not automatically improve. bass tightens and gains impact but loses an [important] subtle articulation within, note decay is also sacrificed. for instance acoustic instruments and intimate vocals can be affected negatively.

the rampant balanced headphone hype on Head-Fi is mostly based on improper volume matching during a 10 minute listen at a noisy meet... flame away. with that said the GS-X and Apache both "perfect" their house sound and i think daltonlanny should reserve judgement about the GS-X vs GS-1 comparison untill they are each given proper opportunity to stretch, the GS-1 may be superficially better than the GS-X if its covering a particular weakness. when the GS-X gets comfortable it doesnt even exist, it just casually observes from a parallel universe transparantly increasing the dynamics of its source signal. the GS-1 will not disappear to that level.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes I know my experience about this subject is lacking. I was just generally questioning these "night and day" -differences people seem to hear. It's interesting to read about it.

From my experience, I have not heard a night & day difference going balanced.. It has to do more with the cans IMO..
1 650 Very noticeable improvement with my DAC1.
2 SA5000 noticeable improvement.
3 340 Minimal improvement. I'm a bit disappointed, but to be fair, my DAC1 isn't doing them justice..

 

[tot]

What is the rationale for different headphones benefiting or not of balanced drive? As far as I know the headphone itself does not care which way it is driven.

 

[grawk]

Ears are the basis for the rationale. When you listen, and it sounds better balanced, you say it benefits. When you listen, and it doesn't sound better blaanced, you say it doesn't. In this particular hobby, if your ears aren't where the buck stops, you're not ever gonna be happy.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tot /img/forum/go_quote.gif What is the rationale for different headphones benefiting or not of balanced drive? As far as I know the headphone itself does not care which way it is driven.

all of the headphones in my personal collection benefit, more or less, equally from being driven balanced.