Shure E4C or Etymotic 4P's???
Aug 1, 2005 at 6:59 AM Post #61 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by akwok
Why do you happen to flame everyone who doesn't seem to like Etys? This is a discussion forum, not a flamefest.


I have no problems if you don't like the ER4, but I keep hearing comments from some users here like 'the ER4 sounds harsh' or that 'the detail is fake', etc. Those comments really aren't true.

some1x: you wished
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 7:03 AM Post #62 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT
I have no problems if you don't like the ER4, but I keep hearing comments from some users here like 'the ER4 sounds harsh' or that 'the detail is fake', etc. Those comments really aren't true.

some1x: you wished



Sound is judgemental. What you like someone else may not like. I may find the SA5Ks harsh, while others may find it to be perfectly fine. I may find the HD650s not detailed enough, while others may find it to be very detailed. There is no such thing as 'true'.
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 7:12 AM Post #63 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by akwok
Sound is judgemental. What you like someone else may not like. I may find the SA5Ks harsh, while others may find it to be perfectly fine. I may find the HD650s not detailed enough, while others may find it to be very detailed. There is no such thing as 'true'.


Like I said. I have no problems for some people not liking the etys. You left out the fact that source, amps, etc. So maybe the etys sound harsh, but only on his system. If my headphone sounded harsh, I would be looking to pair it with the right amp or source. I would not be establishing conclusions based on limited experience.
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 7:34 AM Post #64 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells
There is no significant difference between the two - certainly no audible difference. Both are low distortion.

The frequency response differences are the main source of the sound differences betwen the Ety and Shure.



I would argue otherwise. Firstly, that frequency response can be fixed with EQ. Distortion products cannot be fixed.

Second, -40db of third harmonic in the middle of the midrange, where the human ear is most sensitive, could easily be picked up. And even if it couldnt, see point three below. The Shure's -60db is more than 10 times less distortion than the ety. This to me speaks volumes as well. -40db 3rd harmonic is dead easy for most middle range speaker drivers to achieve. And considering that this is an IEM, i wonder why the traditional distortion advantage compared to speakers is not being tapped here

Third, measurement conditions are not stipulated, particularly output level. Arguments about the test being meaningless because of the fact are not valid IMO, since it is more than safe to assume the same unknown conditions applied to both IEMs and therefore the E4 vs ER4 results can be compared. Distortion is likely to increase further at higher output levels and this would certainly be audible.

And in case anyone here thinks i am being a fanboy, please don't. I am only talking about, and referring to the graphs. I am in no way proclaiming which is the better IEM.

As a side note, i find it curious that you abandon one set of objective measurements (distortion) but yet wholeheartedly adopt another set of objective data (FR) which supports your point.
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 8:11 AM Post #65 of 90
that's truly the only way to know. that, and getting used to canalphones in general which some people on this forum seem to have trouble with.... there is a learning curve involved here, not just sticking them in and playing your music. your ears need to be trained.

i own both the er-4p/s and the e5 and think i have the best of all worlds. they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. it depends on my mood, the music, the recording, etc. i get such a kick about letting people try them out and seeing their initial impressions!

that said, i believe the e4's are a really nice mix of both these phones. they're not as strong as either, but if i was to choose only one to recommend in that price range, i'd have to say to go with the shures e4's. i was never a huge fan of the e3's, but think the e4's are a really nice bang for the buck.

again, though, you really should listen to them both and let your ears make that decision for you....
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 2:05 PM Post #66 of 90
Thanks everyone-

I live in Colorado so I unfortunately won't be able to make it down to Southern California...thanks for the invite though! I think I may try to order each one and see what I like more. I tried to see if there's anywhere in Colorado that I can audition a pair of either of these canalphones but couldn't find a place.

Thank you all for the great info, what a great place to have as a resource for headphone info! I'll let you all know what I end up going with and report my findings!
icon10.gif


Doug
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 5:11 PM Post #67 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by blackreplica
As a side note, i find it curious that you abandon one set of objective measurements (distortion) but yet wholeheartedly adopt another set of objective data (FR) which supports your point.


Because harmonic distortion is not easily recognized as a problem in listening whereas frequency response differences are.

I remember, many years ago, an experiment asssessing harmonic distortion. People could not tell the difference between 1 % harmonic distortion and .001 % - a thousand percent more of harmonic distortion was not noticed in listening.

Intermodulation (IM) distortion is another story. Many recordings show IM distortion from phase distortion from reflected sounds in the recording hall/studio. When a tone is delayed less than 5 milliseconds relative to the original tone, phase distortion is a real audible problem. This is why headphones are less articulate (have less focused imaging) than canal phones, and why room speakers are less articlulate than either.
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 5:42 PM Post #68 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells
Because harmonic distortion is not easily recognized as a problem in listening whereas frequency response differences are.

I remember, many years ago, an experiment asssessing harmonic distortion. People could not tell the difference between 1 % harmonic distortion and .001 % - a thousand percent more of harmonic distortion was not noticed in listening.

Intermodulation (IM) distortion is another story. Many recordings show IM distortion from phase distortion from reflected sounds in the recording hall/studio. When a tone is delayed less than 5 milliseconds relative to the original tone, phase distortion is a real audible problem. This is why headphones are less articulate (have less focused imaging) than canal phones, and why room speakers are less articlulate than either.



Harmonic distortion at such levels should be very noticeable.

It should be remembered that real instruments bounce all over the place, which should make speakers and headphones more accurate. Also better imaging does not equal does not equate to more accurate. Accurate imaging should be as good as that of the recording, and IMO the etymotics lack of decay could be the something to make the etymotics sound with a better image. Also as far as imaging there are full size headphones that can beat canalphones in imaging, and adding soundstage only makes the sound much more lifelike.
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 10:08 PM Post #69 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Iriver
Harmonic distortion at such levels should be very noticeable.


Purely speculation on your part.
 
Aug 1, 2005 at 11:00 PM Post #70 of 90
Art: Why mention frequency response differences of the Shure and Etymotic while ignoring insignificant harmonic distortion differnces?

Because harmonic distortion is not easily recognized as a problem in listening whereas frequency response differences are.

I remember, many years ago, an experiment asssessing harmonic distortion. People could not tell the difference between 1 % harmonic distortion and .001 % - a thousand percent more of harmonic distortion was not noticed in listening.

Intermodulation (IM) distortion is another story. Many recordings show IM distortion from phase distortion from reflected sounds in the recording hall/studio. When a tone is delayed less than 5 milliseconds relative to the original tone, phase distortion is a real audible problem. This is why headphones are less articulate (have less focused imaging) than canal phones, and why room speakers are less articlulate than either.


Mr Iriver: Harmonic distortion at such levels should be very noticeable.

Art: Not at all. You could not hear the difference in harmonic distortion betwen the Shure and Etymotic. You do hear the frequncy response differences.

Mr Iriver: It should be remembered that real instruments bounce all over the place, which should make speakers and headphones more accurate. Also better imaging does not equal does not equate to more accurate. Accurate imaging should be as good as that of the recording, and IMO the etymotics lack of decay could be the something to make the etymotics sound with a better image. Also as far as imaging there are full size headphones that can beat canalphones in imaging, and adding soundstage only makes the sound much more lifelike.

Art: Now you are talking about phase distortion in the listening environment.

Once again: Recodring engineers go to special pains to control sound reflections in the live music environment. Reflections with a delay over 15 milliseconds add a pleasing echo that lends hall ambience to the recoded sound. Reflections with a delay under 10 seconds are bad - cause sibbilance and IM distortion, and smear/muddy the tone image, with a decay that is distortion not ambience. Speakers and headphones have this later bad decay with midrange congestion and IM distortion with poor (spread-out or blurring) imaging of a tone - canal phones do not have this and are more detail articulating.

Plus the phase distortion of speakers and headphones can compound the problem over that in the recoding room of live recording - changing a nice recorded ambience to IM distortion in the listening environment.

Headphone designers try to control for reflections in the outer and middle ear, making use of it to enhance bass and expand the soundstage. They accomplish this at the cost of blurred images and IM distortion.

Just because sound reflects in the live music room does not make this good. If you have a bad seat it can sound bad. Reflected sound in the listening room can make your speakers sound terrible if you don't place them carefully.

The best sound from speakers, as far as image focus, clarity of inner detail, and lack of IM distortion from phase delay sources (reflected spound), is in an open field of grass, with satelitte monitors 4 feet of off the grass and 6 feet from your ears and 8 feet apart, and a huge subwoofer to compensate for loss of bass by the absence of room reflections. This would give you the best of speakers and the best of headphone clarity and detail, with good image resolution.

Try this at home: position your speakers 3 feet from your ears (tweeters aimed at your ears) and 3 1/2 feet apart, and with the speakers at least 6 feet from the nearest wall. You will be amazed at the headphone like clarity.
 
Aug 2, 2005 at 2:47 AM Post #72 of 90
Now I can hear the harmonic distortion in my Etymotic 4S.

Terrible.

Didn't even notice it before people here pointed it out to me.

How could this be - why didn't I hear it before? - it is so obviously bad.

Absolutely ruins the sound for me.

Can't understand how people rave about the Ety 4S, 4P and 6i.

The world's best earphone (non-custom fitted), as respected critics have said? Don't these critics hear the obvious harmonic distortion so evident on the distortion graph?

Don't the hundreds of thousands of Ety users, who use hardly anything else, hear this huge distortion?

Am I the only sane person on the universe?

I'm now even hearing that same harmonic distortion in live music when I go to concerts. Must be faulty instruments they are using.
 
Aug 2, 2005 at 3:05 AM Post #73 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells
Now I can hear the harmonic distortion in my Etymotic 4S.

Terrible.

Didn't even notice it before people here pointed it out to me.

How could this be - why didn't I hear it before? - it is so obviously bad.

Absolutely ruins the sound for me.

Can't understand how people rave about the Ety 4S, 4P and 6i.

The world's best earphone (non-custom fitted), as respected critics have said? Don't these critics hear the obvious harmonic distortion so evident on the distortion graph?

Don't the hundreds of thousands of Ety users, who use hardly anything else, hear this huge distortion?

Am I the only sane person on the universe?

I'm now even hearing that same harmonic distortion in live music when I go to concerts. Must be faulty instruments they are using.



i thought u liked the ety, now u think they are terrible? wow.
 
Aug 2, 2005 at 3:34 AM Post #74 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by elephantman
i thought u liked the ety, now u think they are terrible? wow.


By the way he wrote I think it is sarcasm....Is it?

Damn if he can hear the harmonic distortion so well, he must have the true golden ears.
 
Aug 2, 2005 at 6:25 AM Post #75 of 90
Well it sounded like harmonic distortion.

Turned out to be spiders in my ears - a nest of them in each ear.

A nurse friend took them out.

Etys sound good again.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top