Shanling Streamers - EM5 & NEW EA5 Plus
Dec 18, 2023 at 3:00 AM Post #781 of 937
@Shanling
Thx for the explanations, even if they are not edifying.
Rgds
Hi,

Not edifying is an understatement.
But at least, the answer is HONEST.

"This is not something our software team is capable of right now".
" Anyways, so far, R7 is not a solution that works on it's own. It needs the assistance of third party software".

So basically :
- 1°) our software team is not super competent ;
- 2°) we don't care about customer requests.

No really satisfactory, but at least it is honest.

Regards.
 
Dec 18, 2023 at 3:03 AM Post #782 of 937
Did you put the coins in the vendor machine?
:darthsmile:
Again, throw the bloody all in one streamers in the garbage and use a tablet or a computer with a proper DAC/AMP.
As an expert told me, I won't say his name, because he is an official Shanling distributor: "just connect your Ipad to your EM5 and **** the rest". Unfortunately, if I had to do that, why the EM5 and not any other solution?
Ciao
Hi,

Yes, I did. Unfortunately I got no lucky sevens :frowning2:

The R7's sound is not as good as the sound on the Shanling EH-3 and that is for sure.

Besides, it also get's crippled software...
But at least it works with third party software which makes it usable.

I'll try to see how I can tweak sound but I fear I won't get something satisfactory after being used to the EH-3 :frowning2:
 
Dec 18, 2023 at 4:48 AM Post #783 of 937
Hi, the comparison will be between the Shanling Eh-3 and the R7 and will be a quickie : R7 is nowhere near the EH-3 when you compare sound.
The R7 sounds veiled and muddy compared to the EH-3 even if same EQ is applied to the headphone...
Thank you for your reply
 
Dec 18, 2023 at 3:28 PM Post #784 of 937
... While waiting for the end game DAC/AMP,
... and very (very) close to throw the bloody streamer out of the window...
I have been listening my vinyl collection with my 1988 Thorens TD166,
class A-B British amp and loudspeakers.
Wine was from my Country, sorry.
What do they know in Shenzen about it????
:beerchug:
Ciao
 
Dec 19, 2023 at 4:33 AM Post #785 of 937
Thank God, I don't have all these online streaming problems! However, it's not because of Shanling. I use the EM5 in a very simple way — uploading Hi-Res files to an SD card.

Yet, I still encounter some unresolved issues. The most frustrating one is the lack of gapless playback. I've requested this feature multiple times, but the software team has prioritized UI and volume issues.

Another problem is that I can't upload a folder via Wi-Fi; it only allows file uploads. So, I have to create a folder in the EM5 directory and then drop files into it individually. Additionally, if a filename contains an apostrophe ( ' ), the file won't upload. Nonetheless, I can manage with these limitations.

Using the EM5 as a DAC with my MacBook also presents a sound issue: it occasionally mutes, sometimes for a second every two minutes.

But for the ignoring from the Shangling team I would love my EM5.
I wish they would provide more feedback and updates, addressing our concerns. However, they return after a long time with updates like "quick access to streaming services and NAS."

WHY? Who told them that customers needed this?
 
Dec 19, 2023 at 1:10 PM Post #786 of 937
Hi,

Not sure God has anything to do with it... 😁😁😁

But yes, I confirm that Shanling makes weird choices when it comes to software updates.
I think they mostly release software updates just to say that they offer support. But indeed a lot of updates are only cosmetical ones or adding things no one ever requested.
It's like the so called software team (Shanling says that the number of people working there is confidential, I think confidential is another word to say no one...) works with no guidelines and no real scope.
Maybe the son of the founder is the developer just to get him a job ?

I think shanling should take some examples at what third party developers are doing as a source of inspiration...
Maybe even get in touch with those developers.
What is really regrettable is that it would be superbly easy to solve all problems : just allow users to install third party apps.
They do it on DAP...
Shanling claims it would be to difficult in their desktop devices.
May I point out that Fiio can do it on it's R7 so it is not unfeasible!

But no they keep searching new ways of forcing their views of online music reproduction upon all their users, just creating frustration and angriness because their devices sound just pretty good...

Me I am now with Fiio R7. It doesn't sound as good as Shanling EH-3 or, as I remember, the Shanling EA-5 and nowhere near the Shanling H7, but it allows to enjoy music the simple way !
 
Dec 19, 2023 at 8:19 PM Post #787 of 937
Hi,

Not sure God has anything to do with it... 😁😁😁

But yes, I confirm that Shanling makes weird choices when it comes to software updates.
I think they mostly release software updates just to say that they offer support. But indeed a lot of updates are only cosmetical ones or adding things no one ever requested.
It's like the so called software team (Shanling says that the number of people working there is confidential, I think confidential is another word to say no one...) works with no guidelines and no real scope.
Maybe the son of the founder is the developer just to get him a job ?

I think shanling should take some examples at what third party developers are doing as a source of inspiration...
Maybe even get in touch with those developers.
What is really regrettable is that it would be superbly easy to solve all problems : just allow users to install third party apps.
They do it on DAP...
Shanling claims it would be to difficult in their desktop devices.
May I point out that Fiio can do it on it's R7 so it is not unfeasible!

But no they keep searching new ways of forcing their views of online music reproduction upon all their users, just creating frustration and angriness because their devices sound just pretty good...

Me I am now with Fiio R7. It doesn't sound as good as Shanling EH-3 or, as I remember, the Shanling EA-5 and nowhere near the Shanling H7, but it allows to enjoy music the simple way !
The chief of software team (not related to our founders) went with our team to the Munich High-End exhibition this year, to see for himself how other manufacturers are doing.

It's up to his decision to shape the Shanling devices. Our customer service team provides them with all the feedback we get here, but that's where our power ends.
 
Shanling Have any question about our players? Just PM me or send me email. Stay updated on Shanling at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Shanling-Audio-603230783166845/ https://twitter.com/ShanlingAudio https://www.instagram.com/shanlingaudio/ http://en.shanling.com/ frankie@shanling.com
Dec 19, 2023 at 11:13 PM Post #788 of 937
Hi,

What ? He went to Munich this year ?
He should have done that a long time ago !

I am sure that this is where your power ends.
You're probably not happy to see all those complains over time.
Not against you personally.
Against the total contempt shown about customer request/suggestions/complains that are all justified.
 
Dec 20, 2023 at 5:22 AM Post #789 of 937
The chief of software team (not related to our founders) went with our team to the Munich High-End exhibition this year, to see for himself how other manufacturers are doing.

It's up to his decision to shape the Shanling devices. Our customer service team provides them with all the feedback we get here, but that's where our power ends.
@Shanling
The power of what, please?
Do you mean the power of the customer service dep't, or the power of Shanling Co.?
... Did you run out of good software engineers in your Country?
If something doesn't work, it should be changed.
We are not talking about sound, we are talking about software functionality, features and reliability.
Which is software is all about.
So, if the software systematically fails, than change the software, or the engineer!
As simple as that.
And this should be done before the clients change supplier.

By the way, you asked me what was wrong with the Amazon Music App in my EM5 and I replied. You didn't.
So, why did you ask?

We expect a good customer service gives replies, no excuses.
And from the company: no explanations, but solutions.

... And my Shanling EM5 is getting ever closer to my window.

Compliments!!!!
 
Last edited:
Dec 20, 2023 at 3:48 PM Post #790 of 937
@Shanling
The power of what, please?
Do you mean the power of the customer service dep't, or the power of Shanling Co.?
... Did you run out of good software engineers in your Country?
If something doesn't work, it should be changed.
We are not talking about sound, we are talking about software functionality, features and reliability.
Which is software is all about.
So, if the software systematically fails, than change the software, or the engineer!
As simple as that.
And this should be done before the clients change supplier.

By the way, you asked me what was wrong with the Amazon Music App in my EM5 and I replied. You didn't.
So, why did you ask?

We expect a good customer service gives replies, no excuses.
And from the company: no explanations, but solutions.

... And my Shanling EM5 is getting ever closer to my window.

Compliments!!!!
Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

Makes me feel less alone...

And I 100% second that motion.

Stupid question : anyone here from China ?
I see you can register with Eddict but that requires a Mainland China phoneline.
What do you get if you register ?
I hope/think/assume you get access to services that make an ecosystem.
Maybe some of them are paid services.
Then sticking to Eddict so desperatly would make at least some sense.
If not, I really do not understand :
- why sticking to Eddict ;
- why the updates are so slow ;
- how Shanling can hope to sell the 5k€ Onix with that software ;
- why they can not add features that are requested and simple to implement ;
- why they keep releasing useless updates.

A nice way to make much more money would be :
- fire all the people in the software team (we do not know how many people work there but there must be several. I there is a "chief" there must be a team, right ? ANd since we're told they are super competent, they'll find another job quite easily) ;
- rely on third party software and work with competent free-lance developers and maybe get something like a licensing program with them ;
- hardware is brilliant, software would be no problem => good reports from customers => more units sold.

But who am I to judge ?

Regards.
 
Dec 20, 2023 at 4:50 PM Post #791 of 937
Alright, I've been quite critical of the EM5 software in the past, and I still am disappointed in it. So much that it's been actual months since my EM5 has last seen use.
That being said, I'm seeing some misconceptions pop up in here that I want to address.
Context: I'm a software developer (Obviously not one that works at Shanling).

The power of what, please?
Do you mean the power of the customer service dep't, or the power of Shanling Co.?
... Did you run out of good software engineers in your Country?
If something doesn't work, it should be changed.
We are not talking about sound, we are talking about software functionality, features and reliability.
Which is software is all about.
So, if the software systematically fails, than change the software, or the engineer!
As simple as that.
The Shanling account here is likely run by their community representative, which is a department that may or may not be part of the Customer Service department (in my company, they are separate departments that communicate often). It's their job to actually interact with the community on various platforms in order to make announcements, gather community sentiment about the products, and possibly help customers troubleshoot any issues they're having. They've also likely been given explicit instructions about the things they can and cannot say to the community, because they are essentially acting as the official voice of Shanling, so they can only really say things that the company wants to share. On the other side, other departments have likely been forbidden from interacting with the community because then it would be too hard to control the flow of information. It would be more likely that someone would say something controversial, or not representative of the views of Shanling, or accidentally give away some trade secret. So it's up to the community representative to act as a liaison between us (the community) and the development team.

So what does this mean? Well, it means that all the community rep can really do is take our feedback and forward it to the development team. That's all. They have no power to actually tell them what to do. They can only tell them what we want.

Alright, so we should blame the software devs then, right? Wrong. The software devs also have very little control over the tasks that they work on. There is likely some sort of project manager that is prioritizing which tasks should be worked on, and then they delegate those tasks to the software team. What gets worked on highly depends on how many software devs are available, and how much time they have to work on the next update.

I have no clue how big Shanling's software team is, but I know they have several released products currently in development and they likely need to spread out their software devs across them all (in addition to any possible unreleased products they are developing). So I wouldn't be surprised if the number of devs allocated to this product family is between 1 and 3 devs. This update was also probably a very difficult one because of Tidal's major change with deprecating MQA and introducing the MAX quality tier (which could mean MQA or Hi-Def). So most of their time was likely spent addressing that issue.

Anyway, my point is that if Shanling isn't working on the features you want them to work on, it's because the project manager doesn't agree with you for some reason. We're just a small community of people complaining on the internet, and the PM likely has access to a bunch of tracking/usage data that is driving their decisions.

My personal wishlist:
  • Tidal Connect
  • Better Synclink connectivity (I hate wireless projection)
  • Better uPnP support

- why they can not add features that are requested and simple to implement ;
- why they keep releasing useless updates.
Unless you work at Shanling, you don't know which features are simple to implement. So it's not good to make assumptions about that. I can almost guarantee that the features we've requested on here have been forwarded to the software dev team, so they know what we want and it's likely in some backlog somewhere.

Just because an update is useless to you doesn't mean it's useless. From what I can tell, there were several improvements to Wireless Projection with this update, which is the main way that people control their units, so I'm sure some people are getting some use out of it. Also, this update finally updated the Tidal app, which means they now have access to MAX quality. So all Tidal users got something from this. It was not a useless update.



Alright, that's mostly what I had to say. I understand getting upset on the internet when you buy a product and don't get what you expected, and that's happening more and more frequently nowadays. Just make sure you direct your anger towards the right people. In this case, that is NOT the community representative. They are likely the person that's most on your side.
 
Dec 20, 2023 at 5:11 PM Post #792 of 937
Hi,
Concerning my assumptions about easy to implement features...
My question to you as a developer.

If almost all of the free software developed by a single developer that published his work on the Android play store implement those features, am I not entitled to consider that a team of seasoned developers working full time on the project are able to do that ?
Example : display cover art when browsing through albums.

If we are somewhat rude here it is not against the guy answering us at least not personally.
But to try to press him to report to software team (I really don't believe there are 3 people working on this project and publish so little upgrades) and tell them things should be done.

Mind you, but having a software that allows you to browse by artist and when you hit an artist name shows not the albums by that artist by all tracks by that artist does not make really sense to me.
And I do not think this would be difficult to achieve either for the reasons mentioned before.

Anyways, it is now obvious that we will never get updates that improves the overall experience.
So a lot of people will probably switch to another brand.

I have been a loyal customer to shanling : m2x, m3x, m6, m6 pro, m8, ea-5, h7 and eh-3.

No problems on DAP: you are free to install third-party software and so can circumvent the Eddict software nightmare.
But on desktop devices, the choice to close and forbid installation of third-party software should force Shanling to release top quality software.
And they do not deliver...
That is just a statement.
I think I'm not the only one fed up by those choices.

And sometimes the answers of the community manager, probably urged to answer that way as you wrote, are ridiculous. Sorry if you disagree but that is how I am feeling about it

Regards
 
Last edited:
Dec 20, 2023 at 6:18 PM Post #793 of 937
Shanling wants to create a vertical (aka control all the stack like iOS)
They went baremetal with software on both the producer (server) and consumer (sofware).
Probably now trying to deal with an extremely large surface ( protocols, corner-cases) and dealing with low level language (C, C++)
Obviously the bandwidth is too fin and tensions rise everywhere.

Customers like us feel DEEPLY gaslighted and denied the paid experience.
Maybe in some years it will pay and everything is great and money cashflow are positive like never or
word is already on the street about shanling approach, devs give up because the tasks are
too hair killers and knowledge is lost with continuous turnovers.

Obviously the strategy of C-Level is flawed or at least it will take a lot of time but cost is supported
by customers paying for abandoned hardwares. Fire (paid) & Forget.

Imagine a Shanling Dap without Neutron, UAPP, PowerAmp, Amazon, Apple music etc
They have HUGE team just to keep up and shanling want to handle all those protocols and hardware by itself.

Maybe, in a far far future, they can do it
until then we are the let down and this can not be publicly acknowledged by the representative.

That's why we don't read about an unhappy customer but wholes threads filled with incomprehensions.


What I wrote does not matters at all, only the CFO spreadsheet makes the talk.
 
Last edited:
Dec 20, 2023 at 6:19 PM Post #794 of 937
am I not entitled to consider that a team of seasoned developers working full time on the project are able to do that ?
You are. And they are likely able to do that. But the question is not of whether they're able to do it, but how easy the feature is to implement. And it's still not safe to assume apparently simple features are simple to implement.

free software developed by a single developer
You don't know how experienced this single developer is. He could be a very experienced developer that is releasing a pet project on the app store. Also, this developer doesn't have anyone to answer to except themself. No timelines to adhere to (the update is done when it's done) and no management to deal with (they'll work on what they want, not what they're told). Compare this to a company who has targets, deadlines, metrics, and they have several products that they need to maintain compatibility with because they are using their own custom version of Android that's tied to specific hardware.

seasoned developers
You don't know how seasoned these developers are. You don't know the turnover rate at Shanling. These could be junior devs, or relatively new hires. You know that they're professional developers because they're presumably getting paid to work at Shanling. But you have no clue about their numbers or experience level.
working full time on the project
You don't know that they're working full time on the project. They could be juggling software updates for many different products. For example, the m2x, m3x, m6, m6 pro, m8, ea-5, h7 and eh-3. These are all different products that have different hardware and software considerations.
Example : display cover art when browsing through albums.
I agree this is a simple feature. But once again, simple features aren't necessarily easy to implement.
So let's go through a little thought experiment about all the complications that can arise when implementing a feature like this.

The goal is to display cover art when browsing through albums. Well, first thing we need to do is access the cover art. We can assume that this is in the track metadata, but we're not browsing tracks, we're browsing albums. We also may not have access to the folder that album is stored it, because it may or may not be even stored in a folder, or split across multiple folders. Alright, so we'll just hack it and check the first track of each album and use the album art we find in the metadata, if it exists. Otherwise, we'll just show nothing. Now, once we do that, the app is crashing when there are more than 10k albums because the process of looking up track metadata from different sources (USB, SD) and loading album artwork takes more than a second and Android automatically kills the app because of unresponsiveness. Alright, well let's do it over multiple frames. Well, now this menu is supposed to be a simple scroll list and it's not supposed to dynamically update as it expects all the information to remain static while you're in the menu. And refreshing the UI while you're in it causes the scroll list to reset and you're back at the top because we don't save your position. Alright, so now we've taken a "simple" feature like "display cover art when browsing through albums", and complicated it to "allow for dynamic UI refreshing in scroll lists".

To clarify, I'm not claiming that this is the reason for them not implementing this. I'm not even claiming that this even is a realistic situation. I've never made a music library app before, so I don't know what problems I need to solve. I'm just giving an example of how something that sounds simple may not actually be simple.

Mind you, but having a software that allows you to browse by artist and when you hit an artist name shows not the albums by that artist by all tracks by that artist does not make really sense to me.
I also agree with this statement. That UX doesn't make sense to me. But there's likely a reason why it hasn't changed yet. I don't know what it is, but it's likely not "we don't feel like doing it because we're lazy".
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top