[bigshot]

I was having a problem with a buzz in my system, which I suspected was from a xerox machine on the same power circuit on the other side of the wall. I spoke to a nice salesman who told me I needed a power conditioner. It was a power strip, but fancier, (monsterous in fact!) and it cost many many times as much as a home depot power strip. I bought it and took it back to my office. No change. I tweaked the grounding of my amp and equalizer. Poof! no more buzz, but I was stuck with a very pretty, but pointless power strip.

I've already done the Monster Cable comparison and I know the truth about that one. (The emporor has no clothes!) So you can understand my skepticism of any cabling changing the quality of the sound.

If there's a short, you hear crackling and cutting out. If you get radio interference, you get a buzz. These are all clear and unequivokable. Best of all, conceptually, you can completely wrap your head around *why* a new cable would get rid of the short or buzz. But when it comes to making an already good system sound better for some theoretical reason based on measurement numbers presented with no context... that's when I start suspecting someone is trying to fleece me.

Case in point... power cord. Why would a fancy power cord make any difference when the wiring in the walls uses standard code cord? If you can measure that the cord passes power along more efficiently, then compare the degree of efficiency against the normal fluctuation of power levels in the average wall jack. Are we talking grains of sand in a beach here? If you have a theory that you think might hold up, get a buddy to swap cords for you without you knowing which is which. I bet it's pretty tough to detect that coloration you were sure you heard before!

I recently saw a set of $300 wooden knobs on an audiophile site. The copy cited charts and diagrams to prove that knobs made of this particular type of Ash tree grown in Sweden or somewhere like that made volume pots sound cleaner. Yeah... right. Pull the other one.

There are SO MANY big factors that make sound lousy nowadays... engineering for the lowest common denominator, speaker systems designed to have no focus to the soundstage and to be so tiny sound is compromised, function sacrificed for form, digital meddling and overworking, poor mike placement, "giving the people what they want" with overboosted bass and treble, etc, etc, etc... it's a waste of time (and most of all money) to chase after minute factors.

The most convincing argument isn't "I can hear it and you can't." It's the argument that presents a problem that just about everyone can hear, explains how it works, and then presents a solution. Those are really useful discussions. Flowery talk about veils is at its best, really good fiction... add some charts and diagrams and it's Science Fiction!

See ya
Steve

 

[markl]

Quote:

I've already done the Monster Cable comparison and I know the truth about that one. (The emporor has no clothes!) So you can understand my skepticism of any cabling changing the quality of the sound.

Well there you have it. You realize that Monster Cable is the Bose of the cable world? Those are the most useless cables on the market, shoddy build quality (appalling quality control) cheap design (scarcely better than stock cables) and negligible impact on sound. I don't blame you for concluding cables make no difference after trying Monsters, they are a true waste of money, even their "hi-end" cables (the $100-$140 variety) are pieces of doo-doo.

 

[Len]

The best analogy I can think of is plumbing. You could argue that the last 1' of water pipe makes no difference when it has traveled 500', but we all know this is untrue. On the topic, for all intents and purposes, the power from the oulet has only traveled the distance between your breaker (more precisely, step-down transformer) and your outlet. All that "miles and miles" of wiring argument is facetious.

Whatever the case may be, either you hear a difference or you don't. We can argue until we're blue in the face and still come to no consensus. Whether you use you brain or your ears to judge, it doesn't make a difference. If you perceive an improvement and it makes you happy, terrific. If you don't hear any difference and you're happy knowing cabling doesn't matter, great.

 

[acg2424]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Len The best analogy I can think of is plumbing. You could argue that the last 1' of water pipe makes no difference when it has traveled 500', but we all know this is untrue. On the topic, for all intents and purposes, the power from the oulet has only traveled the distance between your breaker (more precisely, step-down transformer) and your outlet. All that "miles and miles" of wiring argument is facetious. Whatever the case may be, either you hear a difference or you don't. We can argue until we're blue in the face and still come to no consensus. Whether you use you brain or your ears to judge, it doesn't make a difference. If you perceive an improvement and it makes you happy, terrific. If you don't hear any difference and you're happy knowing cabling doesn't matter, great.

Well Said. Now can we end this arguement?

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

All that "miles and miles" of wiring argument is facetious.

No, it's not meant in jest at all- it illustrates how preposterous it is to assume that you can somehow 'deepen the bass response' of your amp by ferrying the electricity across that last 3 feet on some different material.

PhilS is correct on one point, though- if you have some outrageous source of RF interference (although, you'll know it if you do, and it won't sound like 'recessed mids' or some other nonsense), and the stock power cord isn't shielded well enough to render it inaudible, you're one who could indeed use an upgraded power cord.

Quote:

The best analogy I can think of is plumbing. You could argue that the last 1' of water pipe makes no difference when it has traveled 500', but we all know this is untrue.

For your analogy to be accurate to the situation being discussed, you'd have to be contending that the last 1' of plumbing makes a big difference in the 'feel' of your bath simply by virtue of being made of platinum rather than copper.

Your last paragraph is a good one, and if that's all anyone wants to contend to noobs in here looking for sound advice (pun intended), nobody will hassle you. I'm sure all Head-Fiers would like the integrity of the forum maintained, though, so please limit the claims to that which you can prove, or at least to those forums where all discussions are done with a big "wink wink".

 

[marios_mar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Limited to the frequencies we can actually hear? Yeah. If you listen to CDs or digital media derrived from them, there is literally no information above 20Khz anyway. Also, that doesn't mean there is no frequency response above and below the 20Hz-20Khz range, just that there is some db of fall-off beyond those points, left unstated by Sony. That said, the 20-20 rating was probably "industry standard" way of listing frequency response in '89 when they were first released, a shorthand way of saying, "yes, this product has full-frequency response, check." Before the days of subwoofers with 10Hz usuable output, few people listening to tones below 20Hz back then even through speakers. It was also before the days of hi-rez formats and supertweeters with their ability to reproduce sounds up to 100KHz, too. Also, the 20-20 rating is pretty meaningless without knowing the +/- db they are using. if you want to make the rating look better, you could just rate your headphones to +/- 10db and get a frequency response of 5Hz-100Khz if you wanted to. Personally, I'm not hung up on the frequency response ratings of equipment, you rely on the manufacturer to provide those numbers (subject to exaggeration which is rampant), and there is no adhered to industry standard either. I'm more interested in how they sound, much more reliable measure of how much I will enjoy them!

Probably that's what the 20-20 means. To show that it is full range. Long before the hi-erz formats there was vinyl. And analog has lower than 20 and higher than 20K freq. in hi-end systems with proper records.

 

[Len]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac For your analogy to be accurate to the situation being discussed, you'd have to be contending that the last 1' of plumbing makes a big difference in the 'feel' of your bath simply by virtue of being made of platinum rather than copper.

My analogy was certainly not a perfect application, but as with most analogies, it was made to make an idea more accessible. Your qualifications on my analogy aren't perfect either since you're assuming many errorneous correlations, such as tactile sense is as acute as auditory sense. We can argue for days about the academic details, but I trust you understood my idea.

Quote:

Your last paragraph is a good one, and if that's all anyone wants to contend to noobs in here looking for sound advice (pun intended), nobody will hassle you. I'm sure all Head-Fiers would like the integrity of the forum maintained, though, so please limit the claims to that which you can prove, or at least to those forums where all discussions are done with a big "wink wink".

If you're asking members to temper reporting what they hear, this is extremely unreasonable. I think anyone has the right to express their, honest, personal experiences and perceptions.

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac No, it's not meant in jest at all- it illustrates how preposterous it is to assume that you can somehow 'deepen the bass response' of your amp by ferrying the electricity across that last 3 feet on some different material. PhilS is correct on one point, though- if you have some outrageous source of RF interference (although, you'll know it if you do, and it won't sound like 'recessed mids' or some other nonsense), and the stock power cord isn't shielded well enough to render it inaudible, you're one who could indeed use an upgraded power cord. For your analogy to be accurate to the situation being discussed, you'd have to be contending that the last 1' of plumbing makes a big difference in the 'feel' of your bath simply by virtue of being made of platinum rather than copper. Your last paragraph is a good one, and if that's all anyone wants to contend to noobs in here looking for sound advice (pun intended), nobody will hassle you. I'm sure all Head-Fiers would like the integrity of the forum maintained, though, so please limit the claims to that which you can prove, or at least to those forums where all discussions are done with a big "wink wink".

Bass can be improved in your amp with a better than stock power cord. (noise floor)

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Well there you have it. You realize that Monster Cable is the Bose of the cable world? Those are the most useless cables on the market, shoddy build quality (appalling quality control) cheap design (scarcely better than stock cables) and negligible impact on sound. I don't blame you for concluding cables make no difference after trying Monsters, they are a true waste of money, even their "hi-end" cables (the $100-$140 variety) are pieces of doo-doo.

Ugh, you realize that two Monster cables have been tested and measured and proved to have as good properties as other exotic cables ? Coincidentally it was just mentioned on the other thread, check here.

You also realize that one TAS reviewer and Quad engineer (?) think that home depot extension cord is good enough ? Interesting read here.

Sorry if it's old stuff or have read it before.

 

[Len]

It's funny. People read only the parts that conform to their predisposition. Me? I try not to read as much as listen, especially since cable auditioning is more-or-less free when purchased used (shipping costs is negligable compared to speakers and amps).

 

[JohnFerrier]

The day I find out that my headphone cable is defective, I'll start shopping for a replacement.

(And the reason we are here again is that someone suggested that veil may be caused by the power cord...)


JF

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

I think anyone has the right to express their, honest, personal experiences and perceptions.

Where did I say you shouldn't express your experiences and perceptions? I think you should be MORE than welcome to report those- it's when you take it too far by trying to assign your reports to causes that have no basis in reality that you begin doing noobs a disservice. That's all I meant.

Quote:

Bass can be improved in your amp with a better than stock power cord. (noise floor)

You're right- I guess if your stock cable is so badly made that you're getting increased audible noise from it, you should certainly upgrade.

Good point.

NOTE TO NOOBS: Remember, though, that you're not likely to ever see a power cord that is so badly constructed that it will increase the noise floor in your equipment audibly.

 

[Hunter_Killer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahn i swear i just heard you say that instead of me reading it. it's too late at nite - my interior reading monologue is starting to project fake people's voices at me. by the way you sound like yoda.

Its the force of wisdom reaching out to you from your monitor.

 

[bigshot]

I think a lot of this is like the Princess and the Pea or that Monty Python sketch where the upper class businessmen were arguing about how poor they were raised. (I was raised in a shoebox!)

The purpose of posting first hand observations is to help other people make good purchases, it isn't supposed to be a contest to see who can hear the smallest thing possible.

Sennheiser's product specs for the HD-590 outlines the manufacturing process of the cable... special braiding, oxygen free, etc. None of that justification matters. It's a perfectly good audio cable. There's nothing wrong with the power cables on audio equipment either. If they short out, see Radio Shack for a replacement.

Spend the money you save on a really nice pair of headphones, some better speakers, a bigger iPod or more music. All of those things will provide real value for the money.

See ya
Steve

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac NOTE TO NOOBS: Remember, though, that you're not likely to ever see a power cord that is so badly constructed that it will increase the noise floor in your equipment audibly.

NOTE TO NOOBS: Remember, though, your stock power cord likely is so badly constructed that it WILL increase the noise floor in your equipment audibly as compared to an aftermarket power cord.