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Imo the HD650's are actually fairly neutral. Not perfect, but that's true for every headphone.
I'm starting on my Stax journey in a week or so, I hope they get me to the right sound signature.
I totally disagree. The HD650 are far from neutral. Senn's own marketing material when they came out were about how modern audiophiles (modern of a decade ago that is) prefer colored, weightier sound, and HD650 built on HD600 to deliver that, blah, blah. HD650 is fairly flat, yes, but not neutral. They're pretty dark, with heavily rolled treble and bass, I suspect some FR compression, a midbass hump, and a slightly elevated mids for a fairly warm sound. They're one of the more colored cans that don't have a "fun" sound around. "Colored in a neutral way" I suppose you could say. They're reference, but colored reference.
K702 and HD800 are probably the two most dead-neutral headphones around. Neutral tends to sound cold and lifeless. Kind of boring. Great for editing, analysis, or observation, but generally less fun for listening. I love my K702 as well, but they do sit last in the lineup at the moment for that reason. D5k is probably more neutral than HD650 as well, but the sparkle and sub-bass catches my attention first. HD600 would be much closer to neutral than HD650.
What HD650 has, however, is an amazing life-like timbre. I have not yet seen a headphone, any headphone, not even planars that do hand drums and snares with the lifeline texture and snap that HD650 does.
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Umm. there is no such thing as listening unamped. Even if you plug the HD650 into a laptop or iPod, there is still some sort of amp.. though the amp may be worth $2.
There is no such thing as dead neutral unless you're listing to a live unplugged session.
+1 to that first line. The word "unapmed" is thrown around much too often to refer to not using a dedicated amplifier. Headphones don't work without some kind of amping. Even ramping up to line level before being fed to a pre-amp is amplification at a lower level. The question is never in any instance "amping versus unamped" performance but "really low power, cheap, low quality embedded amp with high output impedance verus high power high quality dedicated amp with low output impedance."
Of course, all too often even with a dedicated amp people plug it into the shoddy amp first anyway rather than bypassing it. Meaning they're just amplifying the low quality distorted signal out of the first amplifier. But thats why we're here to show folks the True Path to Headphone Enlightenment
You can get incrementally closers to dead-neutral depending on gear. My idea of "as close to dead neutral as it gets" would be K702, HD800,
maybe HD600, or Ety E4 IEMs, running on an O2 or a Phonitor. I don't think modern speakers get more neutral than that. The best test is a binaural recording. Binaurals sound proper on neutral cans since the mics captured all the color intendedi n the end result. It sounds wrong on a colored can because you're adding color on top of the intended color. Studio recordings should be colorless at recording so the playback chain/room treatment adds the appropriate coloration to re-create a live room. For that reason I groan when anyone talks about why adding coloration to your HPs via tubes, etc is a bad thing. Most recordings EXPECT the coloration to occur on the playback side via the room and the gear. For headphones we're limited to pads, amps, and pre-colored cans, etc.
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Perhaps you're referring only to Schiit amps, but the Bifrost is less coloured to my ears and certainly more detailed and transparent than the Audio-GD components (FUN and NFB-10SE) I've owned in the past. The Bifrost is a very good foundation for an HD650 setup imo.
Agreed. Bifrost is either dead-neutral or just bright of neutral IMO. What is warm and drippy through Bifrost + Lyr is flat, neutral, and analytical through Bifrost + O2. Bifrost is adding no coloration I'm aware of and can be considered a safely neutral amp. Any neutrality I credit to O2 is courtesy of Bifrost.
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I remember when this thread was mainly about the enjoyment people derived from the HD650. The joy of new owners, the wisdom of weathered veterans and the occasional newbie about to experience a revelation. Now it seems like every second post is from someone peddling something...
btw, I have a DHC Molecule cable listed in the FS section if anyone is interested.
You have the stealth of a ninja warrior
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Same here. I'm planning on getting the HD800 in the future, but IMHO, the bass will never be as good as the HD650.
I always end up with mixed feelings on HD800. Or any of the flagships. The Head-Fi compulsion to always buy the newest best to gets in ones head, and yet every time I listen to my current headphone coloection I still can't answer the question of what more enjoyment I expect such an upgrade to buy at those price points. More detail? I'm hearing tons of detail. Any more would be unrealisitc (compared to sitting in the audience of a live unamped performance) gluttony. More neutralty? I spent so much time building my preferred coloration only to reset it to be more neutral? Bigger soundstage? Ok...got me there, that's desirable. I'm sure I won't be able to hold out the urge to upgrade to something better for the sake of upgrading forever, no matter how illogical
Bass, though.... HD650 has terrible bass by design. It rolls off a good portion of the bass. I have HD650, K702, D5k, HE-400, AD700. The HD650 is the most anemic of all of them except maybe AD700 in the bass department, and the graphs prove it. It's not a flaw however, but a design intended to focus on the mids and reduce fatiguing by rolling off the highs and lows. The midbass hump compensates by creating an enhanced
perception of bass. HD800 shows much more linear sub-bass extension. That's not really one of the ways it's "better" so much as being a product of its different intended sound signature.
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Overall I'm also of the opinion that amplification and DAC's don't have such a large impact on the overall sound. Back when I still had my Little Dot MKIV I would AB between the NFB-12 back and forth, and while there were some differences they weren't exactly huge.
In my opinion and experience the headphones/speakers have the greatest effect on sound signature,
and I'd like to keep it that way.
I'm not sure amp & dac have a huge impact on sound
signature so much as they have an impact on the sound itself. They dynamics, resolution, grain, transient response, etc is all limited and altered by the source signal no matter what the driver can do. Yes, tubes will add some distortion and color, as can various voicings on source gear. But I think when it comes to signal chain it's less about signature/color than it is other attributes.
So your impression can be maintained. It won't change your sound signature, only your sound
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I too love my HD650. Got over 500 hours on them so far and loving every second of them. Sad part now is that I'm looking for another can that would be the "opposite" of what the senn sound is...i'm thinking k702 or something like that... no matter what I listen with though, coming back to the HD650 is always like coming home....warm, cozy...perfect IMHO.
Nothing wrong with complimentary headphones. It's a slippery slope. I did the same after almost 2k hours on mine. Ended up with K702...then HE-400....then D5000. Now I have to draw straws for which to listen to
K702 is a great complimeent for something totally opposite. Where HD650 is warm, refined, sweet, non-fatiguing, K702 is somewhat cold, dry, thin, and hyper-detailed. The catch is it can get fatiguing. But it's a great polar opposite of most headphones. Just be sure to have an amp that can crank fair power into it...it has the power profile of an ortho! Well amped, though, it's a very nice, very different headphone with a huge soundstage.
But HD650 is, indeed, coming home. I missed it the month and a half without them!
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How can I take the grill off? Im absolutely scared of breaking the headphone. Is there a picture/video tutorial on how to take the grill off? I just want to see if there is anything that needs to be cleaned on my 650s. I haven't cleaned them behind the grills.
The picture provided to you is excellent. You remove the whole surround, not just the metal grille. It doesn't snap on or anything, it just slides off from a friction fitting like a dust cap. A spoon is a great utility to use to prevent marring. All that said, I don't think there's anything to clean behind the grille, any dirt should be behind the pad if any. Mine don't have a spot on them and I've had them for 5.5 years. (new drivers now, but the old pods were spotless.) Unless you store them grille side up, I wouldn't worry about dirt in the back but there's no harm in popping the grille if paranoia compells you.
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I would say it depends on the particular aspects of the 650 you would like to find an opposite for. Personally, when I was looking for a complement to the 650s, I went for a Grado.
I definitely agree that coming back to the 650s always feels like a return to home. Other headphones are interesting and I enjoy listening to them, but the 650 has become the standard in my head.
HE-400 had bested HD650 for my #1 spot on my head after my HD-650s broke. HE-400 is still among my favorites for many things. But now that I have my Silver cable (yes, I'm talking cables....and yes, I notice a difference, however it's to be noted that even when I doubted cables, I believed in silver....changing the base metal with different conductive properties easily measured should produce different results, copper v copper is the more questionable one.) Anyway, now that I have my silver cable, I really like some of the changes, and I think it, plus ergonomics, was enough to bump my trusty old HD650s back to the #1 spot on my head, with HE-400 a close second. The only area HE-400 wins now is sheer dynamics which it has a large advantage in. HD650 is once again the more detailed refined one with the bigger soundstage and more natural timbre. However both may effectively equal in terms of which I prefer, and with cable the HD650 is the more expensive of the two by nearly 100%. It is indeed "home", once again, though!
The Denons are still the only choice for anything electronic with a deep sub-bass beat though. Nothing compares there. And K702 is still the analytical champ.
With the current setup, my thinking is...."LCD-who?"
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It's overkill, and then some. Some newbies (irrespective of their post count and title) will tell you that it's a good idea, but what you are looking for will only come incrementally by adding a WA22 or super DAC to an HD650 set up. If you are looking for grand sound stage, you cannot do better than an HD800. Just spend the rest on a high Z amp. The DLIII is a great DAC, and it takes hard, hard work to find a better one at it's price range.
I still get amazed by it. For years I heard nothing but how K70x had way too huge a soundstage. It was unnaturally large. Now I hear praise of how HD800 has such a wonderfully huge soundstage. Which is it, is HD800's soundstage not as big as K70x's, or did K70x not have a big enough soundstage and there was nothing unnatural about it after all?