[Russin]

   
 
Now available at the Hifiman store both in new and old versions refurbished for $229.00
 
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/he-400i-512.html
 
http://store.hifiman.com/index.php/he-400i-509.html

 
Looked everywhere but the source. Huh. Thanks for that. 
 
Those products are tested and in good condition but do not meet HIFIMAN's standards as "new". - I wonder what their standards are.

 

[drwlf]

   
Is the 400i really going for $250 now? I haven't seen it less than $299 used. Hope I didn't get ripped off.
 
But to your point - no, not saying it's muffled compared to anything in the range. Definitely tried to get across that they put pretty much everything in the range to shame. But in my opinion, the presence of the upper-mids/low-treble and the sense of space on the 650s was such that it by immediate side-by-side comparison it can even make the 400i sound muffled. I've even heard people describe 650s as "distant" for the traits that I'm calling out here, which bring the immediacy of the 400is into focus.
 
Less of a ding to the 400is than a testament to the performance of the 650s, but I could see my post being read the way you pointed out.
 
It doesn't help that looking at the data, I was mis-placing my description some what - the region I was look for was more of a low treble phenomenon than a high-mid phenomenon: http://cdn.head-fi.org/e/e3/e39d4087_graphCompare.png
 
Sorry for any confusion. You've clearly a lot more experience than I do. Can you help me understand more about how to explain the aural phenomenon produced by that low-treble dip? It's always felt like "muffling" to me, but I suppose that may have a more precise meaning that I am not grasping.

Yeah, they've been going for 250$ new, from several places for several months, starting from the latest Black Friday.
 
Your measurement-graph has the wrong headphone, the HE-400, (Innerfidelity one seems to be of the older SMC/backplate-version of 400i, and the PDF file has the wrong title inside it as well), not like it matters too much, as the measurements vary from place to place/rig to rig, not to mention the unit variations, and they don't directly relate to how we hear/perceive the sound.
Even though there's some dips and peaks with the 400i starting from the midrange/upper midrange, I find them quite mid-forward, which is probably accentuated by their in your face-presentation, and as they're a bit on the brighter, thinner side of cans, and the treble energy/attack is quite evident, along with the almost unnatural transients.
I was just going for how differently we hear different cans, different synergies with different gear, sources being different, and the beforementioned different volumes, peoples different HRTFs and so on. The HD650 does the midrange splendidly, there is a sense of naturalness to it, especially if you're coming from the speaker world. The 400i's midrange is a bit more problematic, that's true, and quite more production/genre dependant, it's not exactly its forte for every genre. There's some other problems as well with the 400i, but then again, which can doesn't. This is what I think you're after, but 'muffled' wouldn't exactly be my word to describe problems with certain guitar harmonics for example (which I've personally found), as it almost implies a wider range of problems.
Related to this, I found the HE-400i "veiled"-discussion in the LCD-2-thread quite fascinating as well.
And it seems we're having quite different views about the airiness as well, and what creates the perception of it design-/tuning-wise, which is interesting!
And I'm no expert either, these are just my own observations, and opinions.
Just lovely to hear peoples descriptions, and engage in conversation!

 

[Russin]

 
Yeah, they've been going for 250$ new, from several places for several months, starting from the latest Black Friday.
 
Your measurement-graph has the wrong headphone, the HE-400, (Innerfidelity one seems to be of the older SMC/backplate-version of 400i, and the PDF file has the wrong title inside it as well), not like it matters too much, as the measurements vary from place to place/rig to rig, not to mention the unit variations, and they don't directly relate to how we hear/perceive the sound.
Even though there's some dips and peaks with the 400i starting from the midrange/upper midrange, I find them quite mid-forward, which is probably accentuated by their in your face-presentation, and as they're a bit on the brighter, thinner side of cans, and the treble energy/attack is quite evident, along with the almost unnatural transients.
I was just going for how differently we hear different cans, different synergies with different gear, sources being different, and the beforementioned different volumes, peoples different HRTFs and so on. The HD650 does the midrange splendidly, there is a sense of naturalness to it, especially if you're coming from the speaker world. The 400i's midrange is a bit more problematic, that's true, and quite more production/genre dependant, it's not exactly its forte for every genre. There's some other problems as well with the 400i, but then again, which can doesn't. This is what I think you're after, but 'muffled' wouldn't exactly be my word to describe problems with certain guitar harmonics for example (which I've personally found), as it almost implies a wider range of problems.
Related to this, I found the HE-400i "veiled"-discussion in the LCD-2-thread quite fascinating as well.
And it seems we're having quite different views about the airiness as well, and what creates the perception of it design-/tuning-wise, which is interesting!
And I'm no expert either, these are just my own observations, and opinions.
Just lovely to hear peoples descriptions, and engage in conversation!

 
Oh man super bummer, I got a terrible price. To be completely transparent about my bias in this conversation - I'm struggling to try and detect some issues in the new 400is I got, and it's been making me anxious. Getting them home, they didn't have the same sparkle I heard when I was shopping, and I'm trying to discern over-neurotic listening from reality and determine if there really is a problem with the pair I got. Heading back to the shop and comparing the 650s to the 400is, I found the apparent difference between the mids and spaciousness noticeable (using the shop's 400is, not mine for comparison). Hearing you call the 400is mid-forward is compounding that worry a bit, so sorry if I'm coming across on-edge.
 
Good catch - grabbed the wrong graph there. My mistake. That's the problem with looking for data to back up your beliefs and not vice versa. Bad science in action. 

 
Have to decide on what I want to do next here. Thanks for the discussion! 

 

[JWolf]

Talk of the hifiman headphone is off-topic.

 

[Jimmy24]

Looking at a Schiit Dac. I have my HD 650's paired with Crack/Speedball.
 
Worth getting the Bifrost Multibit for these headphones or go with Bifrost Uber?
 
Thanks

 

[Letmebefrank]

I recommend the modi multibit. Many people owning both bifrost multibit and modi multibit agree that they sound basically identical. Considering the power supply is the only real difference at the moment, I'm not surprised. Anyway, I like the natural multibit sound much more than any D/S dac I've tried. The HD650 is no slouch and the Schiit multibit dacs only make them better.

 

[gefski]

Looking at a Schiit Dac. I have my HD 650's paired with Crack/Speedball.

Worth getting the Bifrost Multibit for these headphones or go with Bifrost Uber?

Thanks

Bimby completes your great system.
IMO YMWV

 

[Jimmy24]

That is good to know that I don't have to spend the extra dollars to get basically the same thing! Thank you for the recommendation.

 

[windcar]

I have the 6XX and find the stock cable severely limiting what this headphone is capable of. Those with a great amp and dac will benefit greatly you diy your own cable which will cost less than $50.
My recommendation:
Go to 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Headphone-Wire/32767554889.html
Buy only the Single Crystal cable, preferable at least 5m. Cut 2 pieces of equal length of your choice, one will be for the right and the other for the left channel. There are 8 strands per run, 4 will go to +ve and 4 will go to ground for each channel.
 
End result will be an in bass(yet better definition). Soundstage will increase, vocal will sounds more "crystalline" and treble will increase slightly which helps the rolled off nature of 6XX.

 

[noobandroid]

I'm considering the ve made hd650 cable with 4 pin xlr instead

 

[windcar]

XLR 4 pin can be had for less than 5 bucks. In a small bulk, they cost less than a dollar each. The gold plated ones cost slightly more. But why would anyone want to spend the effort to re-terminate a crappy cable?

 

[CanadianMaestro]

  XLR 4 pin can be had for less than 5 bucks. In a small bulk, they cost less than a dollar each. The gold plated ones cost slightly more. But why would anyone want to spend the effort to re-terminate a crappy cable?

The stock cable on 650 isn't "crappy". And it's the connector that makes the difference for SQ. Not the wire, which is almost always good quality copper. Besides, it beats spending hundreds on a boutique cable that doesn't do much but pad some mfr's bank account. Money better spent on musik and other components.

 

[jimmers]

  XLR 4 pin can be had for less than 5 bucks. In a small bulk, they cost less than a dollar each. The gold plated ones cost slightly more. But why would anyone want to spend the effort to re-terminate a crappy cable?

The general consensus from what I've read here is the standard HD650 cable is fine, maybe the HD6XX cable is different ? I have an OCC silver plated in Teflon cable that I picked up cheap in an auction just because I wanted a shorter cable than standard, I wouldn't say it was any better (different) than the standard cable - quite pretty - I reterminated it to 4 pin for Jot balanced usage.

 

[noobandroid]

XLR 4 pin can be had for less than 5 bucks. In a small bulk, they cost less than a dollar each. The gold plated ones cost slightly more. But why would anyone want to spend the effort to re-terminate a crappy cable?

erm.. ve cable 4 pin is only $30 lol, best price for new cables i think

 

[WriterHead]

  I have the 6XX and find the stock cable severely limiting what this headphone is capable of. Those with a great amp and dac will benefit greatly you diy your own cable which will cost less than $50.
My recommendation:
Go to 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Headphone-Wire/32767554889.html
Buy only the Single Crystal cable, preferable at least 5m. Cut 2 pieces of equal length of your choice, one will be for the right and the other for the left channel. There are 8 strands per run, 4 will go to +ve and 4 will go to ground for each channel.
 
End result will be an in bass(yet better definition). Soundstage will increase, vocal will sounds more "crystalline" and treble will increase slightly which helps the rolled off nature of 6XX.

Sorry, I won't believe that until I see measurements.