[DavidA]

Nice to hear that, is there any genres the 598 will be better than the 650 and vice-versa?

Classical was better on the HD598, maybe gaming but I didn't try, all other genres were better on the HD650.

 

[LightDarkSonic]

Classical was better on the HD598, maybe gaming but I didn't try, all other genres were better on the HD650.

Yeah, I've heard that too about the HD598 being better for gaming overall, If I recall it has to do with soundstage and the HD650 being "too warm". Guess I will go after my 650 then!

 

[LazyListener]

I like the mids from the 598 but would like to improve on them if possible, i also feel like they can be a little basslight and would want a little more of it, some more warmth would be welcome too and a smooth treble, the one from the 598 is smooth so I guess I want less treble overall. So that's what i'm looking for.

I own 598s and they are my favorite can. I also used to own the 650's, and did some back to back comparisons with 598s when I had both. I also had the Magni 2 at the time.

Regarding tonality, in the most basic terms, the 650s have a more neutral tonality than the 598s. The 598s have more mid-bass, high bass, and low mids, so to my ear, they sound warmer and bassier/punchier than the 650's. 650's have a bit more low bass (not much). The mids of the 598s are a bit recessed whereas with 650's they are fairly neutral. 598s have a bit more mid-treble, so a bit more sparkle/air. The 650s have a darker treble.

650's are smoother, less grainy than 598s. Resolution is better with 650s - if you have good hearing, you will hear more texture and fine detail; bass is tighter.

Soundstage is wider with 598s.

In general terms, the 650 is a fairly neutral can with a touch of warmth and gentle treble. The 598s are slightly v-shaped with even more warmth and a bit more treble.

If you think the 598s are bass light, you may be disappointed with the 650s, depending on the amp you mate with them.

For anyone considering the 650's, I'd say do your research on what amp you plan to use with them BEFORE you get them.

 

[LightDarkSonic]

I own 598s and they are my favorite can. I also used to own the 650's, and did some back to back comparisons with 598s when I had both. I also had the Magni 2 at the time.

Regarding tonality, in the most basic terms, the 650s have a more neutral tonality than the 598s. The 598s have more mid-bass, high bass, and low mids, so to my ear, they sound warmer and bassier/punchier than the 650's. 650's have a bit more low bass (not much). The mids of the 598s are a bit recessed whereas with 650's they are fairly neutral. 598s have a bit more mid-treble, so a bit more sparkle/air. The 650s have a darker treble.

650's are smoother, less grainy than 598s. Resolution is better with 650s - if you have good hearing, you will hear more texture and fine detail; bass is tighter.

Soundstage is wider with 598s.

In general terms, the 650 is a fairly neutral can with a touch of warmth and gentle treble. The 598s are slightly v-shaped with even more warmth and a bit more treble.

If you think the 598s are bass light, you may be disappointed with the 650s, depending on the amp you mate with them.

For anyone considering the 650's, I'd say do your research on what amp you plan to use with them BEFORE you get them.

I always agreed with the 598 having a little forward mids but off the Magni 2 they don't sound like that at all, they are great when there isn't treble on the way or at least that's how I feel about it, the bass changes from song to song, sometimes it's plenty others it feels a little lacking.

About what you said about the 650s that's weird what you said, as the general consensus is it being a little bassy or better said "warm", really warm.

About the 598 it is sounding treble-happy to me from the Magni 2, not v-shaped which is weird as I didn't feel like that on the E17 maybe I'm still getting used to the sound though the Magni 2.

Still really confusing what you said. I've researched a lot and what you said about the 650 is a first, really weird.

 

[LazyListener]

I always agreed with the 598 having a little forward mids but off the Magni 2 they don't sound like that at all, they are great when there isn't treble on the way or at least that's how I feel about it, the bass changes from song to song, sometimes it's plenty others it feels a little lacking.

About what you said about the 650s that's weird what you said, as the general consensus is it being a little bassy or better said "warm", really warm.

About the 598 it is sounding treble-happy to me from the Magni 2, not v-shaped which is weird as I didn't feel like that on the E17 maybe I'm still getting used to the sound though the Magni 2.

Still really confusing what you said. I've researched a lot and what you said about the 650 is a first, really weird.

Let's define what we mean by mids. Mids are typically 200-250 Hz through 2000-2500 Hz. The low mids are forward on 598s, and are really an extension of the bass, so that adds warmth. The high mids are a bit recessed on 598s relative to its bass and treble. Agreed, that on some songs, I wish 598s had more bass. The source/amp makes a difference. Out of my iphone 6, the 598s sound warmer and bassier than they did out of Magni 2. The Magni 2 is a "bright side of neutral" amp, IMO. It will make everything sound a bit brighter (treble happy) than neutral. Since 650s have less treble than 598s, the Magni 2 is a better match for the darker sounding 650s than for 598s. Personally, I'm more sensitive to high mids and low treble than I am to mid-treble or high-treble, so the more neutral mids with 650s and Magni 2 were a bit too bright for me on SOME songs. Even though the 598s have more treble than 650s, it's in a range that doesn't bother me, and 598s slightly recessed high mids/low treble are more comfortable and less fatiguing to me.

The 650s are not "really warm" IMO. They may sound warmer than 598s to some, but that's because they have less treble, not because they have more bass, IMO. I found the 650s more lacking in the bass and punch department than the 598s. You also have to remember, the 650s sound will change more with different amps than the 598s. I'm guessing a lot of what you read about the 650s having more bass than 598s comes from owners using tube amps and amps that really bring out that bass. 598s sound doesn't change that much with different amps.

 

[DavidA]

I own 598s and they are my favorite can. I also used to own the 650's, and did some back to back comparisons with 598s when I had both. I also had the Magni 2 at the time.

Regarding tonality, in the most basic terms, the 650s have a more neutral tonality than the 598s. The 598s have more mid-bass, high bass, and low mids, so to my ear, they sound warmer and bassier/punchier than the 650's. 650's have a bit more low bass (not much). The mids of the 598s are a bit recessed whereas with 650's they are fairly neutral. 598s have a bit more mid-treble, so a bit more sparkle/air. The 650s have a darker treble.

650's are smoother, less grainy than 598s. Resolution is better with 650s - if you have good hearing, you will hear more texture and fine detail; bass is tighter.

Soundstage is wider with 598s.

In general terms, the 650 is a fairly neutral can with a touch of warmth and gentle treble. The 598s are slightly v-shaped with even more warmth and a bit more treble.

If you think the 598s are bass light, you may be disappointed with the 650s, depending on the amp you mate with them.

For anyone considering the 650's, I'd say do your research on what amp you plan to use with them BEFORE you get them.

This is interesting in how we each perceive the HD650. I wouldn't consider the HD650 neutral since its quite warm to me compared to most of the other headphones that I own and I think most would consider the HD600 a better example of a neutral sound signature. The HD598 didn't have much mid bass which made it sound thin to me while the HD650 can have too much mid bass at times and not much low/sub-bass IMO.

While a choice of amp will influence the sound of the HD650 its never been so drastic to me that i would consider it a change from warm to neutral or neutral to warm or bright.

Agree with the sound stage of the HD598 being a bit better than the HD650 but its not by much to me.

 

[LazyListener]

This is interesting in how we each perceive the HD650. I wouldn't consider the HD650 neutral since its quite warm to me compared to most of the other headphones that I own and I think most would consider the HD600 a better example of a neutral sound signature. The HD598 didn't have much mid bass which made it sound thin to me while the HD650 can have too much mid bass at times and not much low/sub-bass IMO.

While a choice of amp will influence the sound of the HD650 its never been so drastic to me that i would consider it a change from warm to neutral or neutral to warm or bright.

Agree with the sound stage of the HD598 being a bit better than the HD650 but its not by much to me.

Which HD650 do you own, newer or older drivers?

The 598s have been reported to sound quite different between some units (same model). Tyll from innerfidelity has been quoted in a reddit post saying that 598 sounded too warm for him, but not the 650.

I did not call 650 neutral. I said it has a touch of warmth and gentle treble. Closer to neutral than 598. 650 never had too much mid bass for me. If anything, not enough for my taste. Must be the amps you've used with them. It doesnt have much low bass, just a bit more than 598.

 

[Letmebefrank]

I have to agree with @DavidA . That is very similar to my opinion on the two headphones.

 

[deang001]

Hello.

After reading a lot of this thread I purchased a pair of HD650's (my first decent non-IEM headphones ever) and have been using my Dragonfly Red with them and they sound pretty good. A lot better than plugging them into my Cambridge Audio's 751R headphone input!

I'm thinking of getting a headphone amp for the 650's that will also double up as a DAC for my main system (CA 751R & KEF LS50's & TIDAL/ROON via a MacBook). I'd like to have a remote for volume and narrowed my search down to an Arcam irDAC ii (I already own an irDAC) and a Marantz HD-DAC 1.

Seems the Marantz is a decent amp but not sure about the DAC in it. Seems to be a few using this amp with the 650's and happy with it.

Has anyone had any experience with the Arcam irDAC ii and the 650's? Can find any reference of anyone using the two together.

I think the Marantz is more of a headphone amp first and DAC second and the Arcam the other way around.

Also, what sort of an improvement am I going to hear over the DragonFly? I'm sure they would both play louder. Sometimes on certain tracks 100% on the Dragonfly is not enough.

 

[xDaveyJ]

I think talking about their soundstages in pretty pointless. 95% of headphones suck at depth there's a few that pull it off better than others. The HD800 and K1000 then there's a few like the T1, X2, MA900 that can pull if off ok then it's really pick-em for their sound signatures and technical capability because it's really not worth talking about IMO.

The HD598 and HD650 have about the same amount of depth but the 598 is thinner, drier sounding so they can give that perception of being wider but there's really not much between them. The HD650 is though a superior headphone in every area, I do think the HD650 isn't worth a look unless you invest in a good amp and DAC - Vali 2 or Bottlehead Crack minimum with a resolving DAC like Mimby. The HD650 is a great headphone, better than the Mrspeakers Ethers, LCD-2/X and about on par with the 3. The only reason I don't own it is because of the sub bass extension but it's a fantastic headphone.

 

[LightDarkSonic]

Let's define what we mean by mids. Mids are typically 200-250 Hz through 2000-2500 Hz. The low mids are forward on 598s, and are really an extension of the bass, so that adds warmth. The high mids are a bit recessed on 598s relative to its bass and treble. Agreed, that on some songs, I wish 598s had more bass. The source/amp makes a difference. Out of my iphone 6, the 598s sound warmer and bassier than they did out of Magni 2. The Magni 2 is a "bright side of neutral" amp, IMO. It will make everything sound a bit brighter (treble happy) than neutral. Since 650s have less treble than 598s, the Magni 2 is a better match for the darker sounding 650s than for 598s. Personally, I'm more sensitive to high mids and low treble than I am to mid-treble or high-treble, so the more neutral mids with 650s and Magni 2 were a bit too bright for me on SOME songs. Even though the 598s have more treble than 650s, it's in a range that doesn't bother me, and 598s slightly recessed high mids/low treble are more comfortable and less fatiguing to me.

The 650s are not "really warm" IMO. They may sound warmer than 598s to some, but that's because they have less treble, not because they have more bass, IMO. I found the 650s more lacking in the bass and punch department than the 598s. You also have to remember, the 650s sound will change more with different amps than the 598s. I'm guessing a lot of what you read about the 650s having more bass than 598s comes from owners using tube amps and amps that really bring out that bass. 598s sound doesn't change that much with different amps.

I'm still not sure what to make of the 598 with the Magni 2, pretty sure it does sound brighter sometimes but on the other hand it's a lot smoother too, besides I must say I haven't listened a lot of stuff and it was mostly Asian pop which is know to be treble happy, guess it may be the source and not the phones on this one, have to test more to be sure.

This is interesting in how we each perceive the HD650. I wouldn't consider the HD650 neutral since its quite warm to me compared to most of the other headphones that I own and I think most would consider the HD600 a better example of a neutral sound signature. The HD598 didn't have much mid bass which made it sound thin to me while the HD650 can have too much mid bass at times and not much low/sub-bass IMO.

While a choice of amp will influence the sound of the HD650 its never been so drastic to me that i would consider it a change from warm to neutral or neutral to warm or bright.

Agree with the sound stage of the HD598 being a bit better than the HD650 but its not by much to me.

Maybe it is in songs which are more upper bass centric that I feel like there is a good measure of bass.

 

[sotto123]

I've modded my HD650 over the past few days. It was really easy to do.

Here are the evolution of the changes:

Coin mod - More of an open sound. Touch more clarity and treble.

Rear foam removal - Even more of an open sound but with peaky, harsh, sibilant treble. Midbass hump increase, bass bleeds into mids, livelier sound

Spider cage removal - If you remove the rear foam you most definitely need to do this. Greatly improved the harsh treble, making it more smooth.

I lived with the HD650 for the past few days with the above three mods while I waited for the dynamat to arrive. The sound was improved and I was happy. But one final change was needed to really solidify my impressions of a modded HD650 being an improved HD650. It's quite an important one.

Dynamat + foam covering driver hole - Tighter bass with more texture, midbass hump and bleeding as good as removed, smoother treble, more micro detail. More similar to the stock HD650 in sound signature (at least when it comes to its warmth) but with all areas improved.

All in all this has been a huge success. An upgrade to the HD650 - which I'm sure we've all been looking for - doesn't really exist. There are headphones, often much more expensive, that do some things better and some things worse. It always ends up being a sidegrade in the end.

Turns out that an upgraded HD650 is really just a modded HD650. The HD650 is my favourite headphone of all time and it has just gotten better. I can't believe I've been listening to it in stock form (at much as I have always loved it) for the past 4-5 years, disregarding the mod available to me.

I strongly urge everyone to give it a go at some point, even if it is irreversible. All the mods work hand in hand, so if you do one do them all. People who say they regret the mod are few and far between.

What you get is a headphone that improves upon its weaknesses yet retains its sound signature, all while making it more musical.

 

[DavidA]

Which HD650 do you own, newer or older drivers?

The 598s have been reported to sound quite different between some units (same model). Tyll from innerfidelity has been quoted in a reddit post saying that 598 sounded too warm for him, but not the 650.

I did not call 650 neutral. I said it has a touch of warmth and gentle treble. Closer to neutral than 598. 650 never had too much mid bass for me. If anything, not enough for my taste. Must be the amps you've used with them. It doesnt have much low bass, just a bit more than 598.

My HD650 are the new drivers, purchased in Nov of 2013, using a cable I built with Mogami wire, Cardas connectors and Double-Helix 3.5mm + 3.5mm to 1/4" adapter.

Since I don't have the HD598 anymore I'll take your word for how they sound to you on your system. Thinking of asking my old GF to bring them by the next time she's over so I can hear them again but I really don't think my impressions will change but it might be good to re-listen since its been almost 2 years since I last heard them, will also try to have another friend bring hers by to see if there is much variation.

When I had the HD598 my system at the time was: Bifrost Uber, Asgard2, Lyr2, Modi/Magni (sold), Teac AH-01, WA7d (sold), Project Ember, Fiio X3 and X1, Topping VX1 (sold), and ODAC/O2 (sold). I did get a new cable since the original was a bit microphonic to me and the plastic weave covering was a bit stiff. I've since added a Bifrost MB, Modi2uber, BH Crack and Teac UD-301 (DAC/amp). The Bifrost MB/Ember (mid impedance setting) paired with the HD650 is one of the warmest pairing to me aside from when a friend brought over his Elise (stock tubes). When I say the HD650 has too much mid bass its when it starts to get muddy with some bass heavy tracks which overwhelm the driver, this is where I think planar drivers have an advantage and its why I like having different headphones to cover the various genres that I listen to.

 

[DavidA]

@sotto123, do you have any pictures? I'm planning to do the mods to the HD6XX when it arrives in Dec.

 

[sotto123]

@sotto123, do you have any pictures? I'm planning to do the mods to the HD6XX when it arrives in Dec.

Google HD650 kiss mod and hd650 mod compendium.

All you need to know to do the mod and more.