[habrys]

I'm new here and very new to the high-end headphones business, so be gentle with me please...

I always preferred listening through speakers, felling the deep and strong bass from a good subwoofer, etc. I was using headphones only when there is no other way. Like PX-100 for portable listening. These are really exceptional for such small plastic thing. Really. I bought already second pair (the first one broken).

But... after many complaints of my wife, who couldn't sleep properly with "bullets and helicopters flying around her head and the whole building shaking from explosions", while I was watching movies (not very loud, mind you, she's quite sensitive), I decided to buy some good headphones. For these late night hours. I already was a fan of Sennheisers, so after some reading I finally decided, that HD-650 would be ideal for me. I don't like very exposed highs and love deep bass, so I figured, that the "dark sound" of HD650 everybody is talking about would be ideal for me.

At first I was very unimpressed because of lack of proper bass. Details were exceptional, highs non-fatiguing, voices beautiful, but nearly no bass at all. But this was to be expected, right? (I said to myself trembling

) I've read many threads about 200-300 hours of burn-in required to open up these cans, especially in bass area. Anyway, I put slightly above 100 hours to them and I'm in love already. These cans are exactly what I was looking for. The bass I missed is there now, strong and fast, flexing its muscles! And it's possible it gets even better after these 300 hours, right?

Ok, after this longish intro (sorry!) up to my questions. I've read many threads about headphone amps (a few weeks ago I even didn't know such things exist) and am in serious doubt now "is the headphone output of my receiver really enough?". I couldn't find much information about my receiver regarding headphone output. I like the Pioneer very much when it comes to listening through speakers. Both in surround modes (movies) and 2.1 mode for music. When it comes to listening of the same material through my new HD-650 it's... complicated. Let me explain.

Some music albums sound incredibly good. I never suspected such level of detail, openness, sweetness of vocals, quickness of bass is even possible. That's completely new experience for me. Sometimes I miss the physical impact of my subwoofer, but that's all. Every other aspect is superb comparing to the speakers. And these speakers are by no means low end (Infinity Classia set). This is listening to albums like Pink Floyd "The Wall", "The Final Cut", Marilyn Manson "The High End Low", Riverside, Closterkeller.

But... to my terror I discovered, that some albums I listened and loved since years sound terrible on HD650. Pearl Jam "Ten", everything of Metallica and some others. Which was not the case through speakers. Now... is it Sennheisers revealing weaknesses of mix/recording? Or do I need better equipment (dedicated amp) to drive my cans? This is a question...

There is very little information about headphone output in the Pioneers users guide. Just that is exists, speakers will be switched off when headphones plugged in and which functions/modes cannot be used when headphones plugged in. I couldn't even find the impedance. Neither in google. I found somewhere a post of a user of Pioneer SC-LX81 stating, that HD650 sound fantastic with its stock headphone out. And answer of someone using dedicated headphone amp, that it's interesting and he needs to investigate it further. Nothing more.

And here... well it seems there are many believing, that you cannot properly drive HD650 without dedicated headphone amp. Period. But I also found posts stating, that it's perfectly good to use built in headphone outputs and it actually sounds better (no colouring, less components in the signal way etc.) Sometimes it's even better to use CDs headphone out directly (Marantz CD-5001 was discussed if I remember correctly).

I'm torn.... very much.

When it comes to movies with 5.1 DD or DTS track, which I also watch heavily and hoped to use Sennheisers for this too... most of them sound fantastic downmixed by the Pioneer to stereo. Fantastic space, new details unheard before, even bass is tight, fast and very convincing (for headphones that is, nothing beats a good sub, especially for movies).

But again... I have also couple of concerts in 5.1 DD, DTS or even DTS 96/24. These sound terrible. All of them. Very little bass, unnatural vocals... I don't know, something is missing. The first example would be Within Temptation "Black Symphony" in DTS 96/24. But it could be fault of the source material of course. I remember, that I had to pump up loudness of my sub while I watched this one using speakers.

Sadly I don't have any easy possibility to get an headphone amp to try things out myself, hence my post.

One more thing. Assuming I'll buy (or get for testing) a dedicated headphone amp... The Pioneer receiver has analog preamp outputs for all channels (left, right, center, sub etc.). For now I use only sub output for the sub obviously. Would it be all right to use the left/right outputs to drive the headphone amp and let the receiver downmix multichannel tracks to stereo? Another option would be using digital output (optical or coaxial SPDIF - there are both available) to drive dedicated DAC with headphone amp, but I wouldn't go this way. I'd prefer leaving decoding of multichannel DD and DTS tracks to the Pioneer. It is its speciality after all.

I should probably mention, that my main music source is a laptop with a collection of loseless tracks (FLAC mainly) and HDMI output, so I don't have reasonable possibility to drive a headphone amp directly from the source.

So what do you think? Is it going to be these way from now? Half of my music collection turns out to be crap recorded/mixed and cannot be listened to through my new Sennheisers without pain in the ears? Are these cans really so cruel?

 

[Bloodoath]

I won't address all the issues in your post, but just give you my view. Headphones are different than listening through speakers. You'll notice a lot of differences. Some material will just sound better with one or the other. As far as amps go, I looked for a fairly cheap amp just to see if amping would help my sound. Did not want to go $berserk$ with this audiophile business. I judged that an amp would help my sound and looked for the best device for the money I wanted to spend. I learned your phones will never sound their best without the correct power, low or high impedance. I recommend getting an amp for any amount you wouldn't regret if your not satisfied and give it a whirl. If you like it then look for the absolute best you're willing to pay for and get it. Try to avoid the constant upgrade path. This headphone business can get ridiculous if you let. Happy listening.

 

[smurfz]

I haven't heard LX81, but you're right. Some pre-amps and integrated amplifiers are known to have a decent headphone out. Pioneer A400 was mentioned by some and so I was using it for a while. After much research and difficult decision making, I decided that high resolution was most important to me. From that point, things were pretty straight forward given my budget.

Why don't you take your 650 to a shop that has some headphone amplifiers and have a listen first? Then decide on what you're looking for in your listening. This will help you buy the right gear within your budget.

Enjoy!

 

[Superwhodatt]

Simple answer. Yes get an amp. No not for power, but for quality consistency. Get a low output impedance amp for the HD 650.

Most DVD players will not output DTS into a headphone amp. I have an older non hdmi version which does however. The amps sound better on stereo.

It would seem likely that your headphone output has the same technology as the VSX 518 Pioneer reciever. I have that and the HD 650's. I also have a Perreaux SXH2, and Project Headbox 2, headphone amps.

Firstly, the Pioneer is a 3 D head jack, as claimed by Pioneer in the manual. It sounds extremely like dolby headphone. Some Pioneer gaming phones now have dolby 3 d chips.

This makes certain DVD/Blueray recordings fantastic, with a slight price to pay in upper register mushiness. However quite a few are just wrong, and very washed out. For example in some, an opera tenor sounds on the front of the stage in high notes, and then sounds like he walks to the back for the high notes.

I think ( I know ) quality rather than loudness is the issue addressed by an amp.

Hd 650 only needs 1 volt or about 2 mw for 100 db. Any non battery hphone output is plenty powerful.
Placed a decibel meter in the the cups of the 650 and it was peaking at 90 db, at - 45 on the Pioneer display panel. So the jack would easily reach the 116 db max of the Hd 650.

The bass on the Pioneer 3 d is the best ever. After being just 1 metre away from the orchestra in the opera house, for several hours or so, played Eugene Onegin through the pioneer, 20 mins later. The pitch of the bassoons etc was perfect. The Pioneer handled this as well or better than any headphone amp on the Met's Renee Fleming DVD.
However the physical vibration of speaker bass, and sitting by the orchestra, is not in the phones. Speakers actually exaggerate low fequency thump compared to live. There is a little, but Hphones are actually closer.

The Perreaux has a 1 ohm output. Listening after live performances of opera sopranos, or from a rehearsal hall, and it has the timbre etc very close. Pitch memory lasts quite a while, unlike partial loudness memory. The SXH2 is very accurate, it is superb.

The Project is good also on the HD 650's except that it is a a subtle fraction recessed in the treble to my ear. This could be imaginitis of course. A Panasonic Home theatre jack was definitely sweeter, I set the volume to within less than .5 of a decibel of each other on the same short sound burst on a DVD, to give a fair comparison. The Panasonic sounded more accurate at the top. The Project has a 20ohm output. It may be that the lower impedance output of the Perreaux ( 1 ohm ) is better for the HD650. Note that the Lehman Black Cube Linear, used by Sennheiser in tradeshows, is 5 ohm output.

On both of these, ( Perreaux and Project ) soprano voices in particular have
more ( sometimes far more )squillo and sparkle than the Pioneer Reciever hphone jack recordings. I have the Project amp sitting on top of the DVD player with the Pioneer. So I do direct comparisons, jack to jack. Live a soprano typically has more squillo still than even hphone amps. So the amps are more accurate than the Pioneer tends to be in this regard.

Depending on the recording, the db meter is getting 90-95 db peaks at 12 oclock on both amps, given the same recording. The volume is about the same as a Denon CDP jack I have. This is also a good output. It is a bit too sweet however. They are all about the same as the VSX 518 volume wise.

The Perreaux is officialy 215 mw into 300 ohms. The Project 60 mw. Unofficially the Perreaux has actually been measured at 380 mw into 300 ohm. Gain settings determine volume obviously. Not power by itself. Otherwise the Perreaux would be hugely louder than the Project. It is not, up to 12 oclock at least, on high gain switch at back. Both plenty loud. As the Db meter clearly indicated.



Hope this helps.

 

[davenporter]

Hey, I have a similar question that I don't think is so off topic that I can't post it in this thread. I just purchased a pair of HD650's and I'm wondering what sort of amp I should go for. I really don't want to spend more than $100, but if nothing less than $200 will suffice for getting a really good sound then I'm willing to pay it. Please give me some pointers about what you would recommend for someone on a budget who still wants a good value of sound for money. =)

 

[Superwhodatt]

Davenporter.
I have just listened to the HD 650's with the Project Headbox 2, connected to a Denon this time. Do not get the Headbox for the HD 650. The Perreaux SXH2 annihilated it back to back.

The Headbox has problems driving the 650. I did measure the HBox at similar decibels to the SXH2, about a year ago, but that was with a very loud Celine Dion Recording, so it can't have needed much amp. The HBox was very good with HD555's, which I bought it for, better than the Pioneer Receiver, imho, but the 650s actually performed considerably better with the Pioneer Reciever back to back than the Headbox.

The Project Headbox is a low cost amp, better to spend a bit more money on a V can or something like that, listen first. Funnily enough the Headbox did match a Panasonic Home theatre for volume and fullness, but struggled more with high notes. The Pioneer beat the Hbox for high note clarity on a DVD but not on a CD. Playing a CD on the 650s, the Headbox was better in that, high note clarity department, but was palid everywhere else. I now suspect on DVD's the stereo sound output through RCA cables, to an amp or tape deck, is degraded quite deliberately by the DVD producer, ( to discourage copying )by comparison with direct sound from the home theatre phone jack, sent by optic cable, and this was causing high note loss, not the actual Headbox.

 

[habrys]

Thanks a lot for your advices. I researched a bit more and I think I know what path to choose now. I'll buy a soundcard with dedicated headphone amp first (Xonar Essence STX), which I need anyway, since my old Audigy 2ZS sounds pretty bad with HD650. Understandable, right? - poor headphone out with no amplification, internal resampling 44,1 khz -> 48 -> 44,1 of music etc. This way I can easily check how much do I miss not using dedicated headphone amp for my Pioneer SC-LX81 - comparing it's sound (music & movies) with the sound of the headphone out of the Xonar. The Xonar got pretty good impressions and reviews here, so I think this is the way to go.

What do you think?

Then, if I can hear a real, audible difference, I'll buy some decent amp for my music/cinema room (Pioneer). I thought about Vincent KHV-1. It's pricey, but looks so sexy... and got good reviews too. What's your opinion about this amp? Is it good matched to the Sennheisers HD650?

 

[habrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superwhodatt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Firstly, the Pioneer is a 3 D head jack, as claimed by Pioneer in the manual. It sounds extremely like dolby headphone. Some Pioneer gaming phones now have dolby 3 d chips. This makes certain DVD/Blueray recordings fantastic, with a slight price to pay in upper register mushiness. However quite a few are just wrong, and very washed out. For example in some, an opera tenor sounds on the front of the stage in high notes, and then sounds like he walks to the back for the high notes.

That's interesting... I've recently read very good things about Dolby Headphone implemented on the Xonar Essence STX soundcard and predicted, that I'll miss this feature watching movies using my Pioneer. Do you know if the SC-LX81 has Dolby Headphone implemented? Or is this only Pioneers technology, which happens to be pretty similiar?

Pioneer gives me two options watching multichannel sources through headphones: stereo and "headphone surround". Now headphone surround improves surround effects a bit, but it's not that good. Not even close so fantastic as the things I've read about dolby headphone in reviews of the Xonar (I have to hear it yet...). What I don't like is a slightly metallic overtone, which it gives to dialogues. This is why I watch some movies just using plain, old stereo.

 

[habrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superwhodatt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most DVD players will not output DTS into a headphone amp. I have an older non hdmi version which does however. The amps sound better on stereo.

I plan to use the preamp outs of the Pioneer to connect a headphone amp - if I buy one that is. I don't use a DVD player for movies. Just a laptop decoding HD mkv files with DTS or DD sound connected over HDMI to the receiver. This way I don't have to juggle with the discs

 

[habrys]

I just got the Xonar Essence STX card and am happy to report, that the results exceeded my expectations by large margin. Is sounds so much better with Sennheisers HD650, compared to headphone out of my receiver. Snappy, very fast bass, like I never before experienced at home. Only on live concerts. Everything sounds bigger, cleaner, more open. I never expected it would be such a big difference. Pearl Jam and Metallica sounds like they should now. I'm releived, that it's not fault of crappy recording

I'm fully convinced now, that I need a headphone amp for my receiver. Now which one, this is a question? What do you think of Vincent KHV-1 -> HD650 combination?

 

[Superwhodatt]

The higher end SC LX 81 may have a different Hphone jack from the base VSX 518, although it would be surprising.
On the VSX it is Pioneer's own technology, as there is no dobly headphone symbol on the receiver. However, it is very similar in sound to an actual Headphone dolby output. You can access this on dolby's site. They have a dolby hphone demo, just insert your hd 650's and listen to Micheal Andretti driving around an oval.

The surround introduces a certain mushiness, which is why the headamp sounds better.
The head amp does not work well through the Pioneer RCA outputs. DTS does not transfer at all, and the rest of the sound is transistor radio. This could be because it is deliberately degraded for analogue output by the DVD in this case, so it is not copied.

 

[Superwhodatt]

Some opera recordings, with dolby selected on the DVD in my case, come out extremely well on the Pioneer. I have compared it to a live symphony orchestra as well, sitting next to orchestra for several hours, played same opera on Pioneer, 20 mins later. Pitch perfect. Pitch memory lasts quite well, unlike partial loudness memory which dissappears after a few minutes. So back to back with real orchestra, Pioneer jack is very accurate with bassoons etc. Grado sr325 si brightness removes Pioneer mushiness, in the main.
That is a different story. They work very well with the Pioneer.