Rob80b
Headphoneus Supremus
Lol...this is not going away anytime soon....I'm still looking for the "find and replace tool" on 20 years of posts. : )Did you mean base ?
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Sennheiser HD 660S2 thread
- Thread starter NickedWicked
- Start date
Honestly found how inherently sibilant a headphone has little to do with the FR response in my experience. Thank you for explaining in an easy to understand way why some headphones are sibilant and some aren’t. I’ve heard plenty of peaky headphones without sibilance and some less peaky ones with rather nasty sibilance. Of course the recording can make a difference but some headphones those sibilant tracks don’t really bother your ears. And of course some systems/synergies can make some headphones sound more or less sibilant.Sibilance has more to do with the speed of the rest and response time of the transducer, combined with presence, most often slurring transients and HF sounds together. A peak in treble does not mean sibilant. Sibilance is not represented in graphs.
I wish it was this simple but we don't keep targeted responses in our back pocket haha. Development of a new headphone solution is based on multiple things, primarily application. There are many other factors but we do not back into a headphone model based solely on the frequency response, although the 660S2 certainly leans in that direction (not an apples to apples comparison because it is the v2 of a product that debuted before it)
I think the graphs are helpful to substantiate claims (eg- more sub-bass vs the S1) but have never cemented what the headphone's experience is. And of course we use them when developing to target opportunities and problems alike. I remember the IE 600 graph being "so bad" that we actually sold them all
Graphs are neat and can be useful but listening is what audiophiles actually do best
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@ericpalonen Eric, not sure if you follow closely the 600 thread too, but someone was asking you there to confirm that the HD-600 is not getting discontinued. I think the only reason this came up is because Thomann is out of stock on it, and they've never been out of stock on it as far as people can recall. But the HD-660S2 is replacing only the 660S, you are not aware of plans to end the 600 as well, correct?
PLEASE DISREGARD - I just became aware that you already confirmed this; maybe Thomann is just thinking they will sell less HD-600s due to the new release and under-ordered.
PLEASE DISREGARD - I just became aware that you already confirmed this; maybe Thomann is just thinking they will sell less HD-600s due to the new release and under-ordered.
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Rob80b
Headphoneus Supremus
Graphs do give us a ball park estimation of the tonal response, treble extension,
I do like the more gradual roll off of the
S2 (red) vs 650
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lost&confused
100+ Head-Fier
just had an email from sennheiser .....my s2 are on the way
whoohoo!
whoohoo!
erics75
Headphoneus Supremus
There’s a lot of speculating and judgements being made on very few data points. I know we’re all excited and interested in this new headphone, but IMO we should be patient. Let more units get into non-youtuber hands, let those units break in, and let new toy syndrome and expectation bias die down a bit. Then we’ll have a better idea of where this set will sit in the lineup and if it’s worth your hard earned money. I’d hate to see an unrealistic/untrue narrative solidify based on speculation. Time will be the ultimate judge.
Just my useless rant
In anticipation of my unit arriving next week I’ve been listening to the 650 a lot. I want to have a good baseline for comparison. What I’m struggling with though is should I put the OG pads back on, or keep going with the ZMF pads I picked up. I love the perforated leather pads but they do change the frequent response a bit.
Just my useless rant
In anticipation of my unit arriving next week I’ve been listening to the 650 a lot. I want to have a good baseline for comparison. What I’m struggling with though is should I put the OG pads back on, or keep going with the ZMF pads I picked up. I love the perforated leather pads but they do change the frequent response a bit.
I think that the more open sound and slightly wider soundstage works better for movies.
But if you want blasting and explosive bass then the new one is better.
Wow thank you for the preO and welcome to the #HD660S2Club!just had an email from sennheiser .....my s2 are on the way
whoohoo!
100%. Always is. There's a reason the HD 600 is still for sale.
Resolve
Sponsor: Headphones.com
Just a bit of extra commentary on the HD 660 S2 for folks here.
It sounds... pretty good actually, with similarly detailed mids compared to the other 300 ohm HD 6 series headphones. Add a touch of EQ to balance things out a bit and it gets even better, but make no mistake this is not a poor sounding headphone out of the box by any stretch. I think the only issue for me is the price, since it's less of an upgrade on the HD 650 or HD 600, and more of an alternative flavor that may suit some folks better and some folks worse. And, it's okay for alternatives to be at different price points, but the problem is that the HD6XX is drastically less expensive, still around $200 where you get very similar acoustic performance, and the HD 600 can regularly be had for around $300, which has arguably the best tuning of the bunch (or at least the most 'neutral', for folks who want that).
So for those who prefer the lower ear-gain style tuning of the HD 660 S2 - which is probably the best reason to consider it over the others - it gets tricky when it's in an entirely different price bracket. Of course, this is also a brand new product, while the others have been around for many years, and it's tough for anything to have to go up against the legendary HD 600 and HD 650 in the first place. Sennheiser may have just set the bar too high already.
With regards to the graphs, I see a lot of commentary about how they don't tell everything, and that's definitely true. Because headphone behavior changes depending on the head that's wearing it, what you see on the graph is never going to perfectly predict how it's going to sound to every individual. If you could measure at your own ear drum, the results would look slightly different from what you see on the graph in a few places, and even though individual HRTF would normalize it to be perceptually similar, the headphone transfer function itself can lead to some perceptual differences across listeners. However, while graphs don't tell us everything about how a headphone is going to sound to an individual, they certainly tell us something - especially in cases like this with a comparison to the HD 600 headphones that have identical coupling and mechanical design (acoustic design is slightly different).
In my view, while the HD 660 S2's extra sub-bass is nice, it's less relevant for most music than folks might think. Most musical information doesn't token the full frequency range down there, and the idea of "more bass" isn't exactly going on here. It's as someone else in this thread mentioned - deeper bass... not more bass - and while that's nice, it's not like we're talking about a massive change here. It's a subtle difference, and I tend to think for folks who are all about the sub-bass, this change isn't going to be particularly meaningful, which is also why I think the more relevant bit is the more relaxed upper mids - and that's definitely a key perceptual element of the tuning. Like, in my view it completely changes which types of music I listen to, and I'd say the HD 660 S2 is going to be a bit more forgiving for aggressive music like rock and metal, where certain tones can come across a bit glaring or biting on higher ear gain tunings like the HD 600. But for jazz, acoustic, classical and so on... the HD 600's tonal balance is still better to my ear.
My worry with the S2 comes from what happens when the pads wear in. On the other models, it caused the treble to relax significantly. This may lead to a more congested or muffled presentation on the S2 since its already quite relaxed in the upper mids as well. But we'll see on that. Maybe it just means replacing the pads more regularly.
It sounds... pretty good actually, with similarly detailed mids compared to the other 300 ohm HD 6 series headphones. Add a touch of EQ to balance things out a bit and it gets even better, but make no mistake this is not a poor sounding headphone out of the box by any stretch. I think the only issue for me is the price, since it's less of an upgrade on the HD 650 or HD 600, and more of an alternative flavor that may suit some folks better and some folks worse. And, it's okay for alternatives to be at different price points, but the problem is that the HD6XX is drastically less expensive, still around $200 where you get very similar acoustic performance, and the HD 600 can regularly be had for around $300, which has arguably the best tuning of the bunch (or at least the most 'neutral', for folks who want that).
So for those who prefer the lower ear-gain style tuning of the HD 660 S2 - which is probably the best reason to consider it over the others - it gets tricky when it's in an entirely different price bracket. Of course, this is also a brand new product, while the others have been around for many years, and it's tough for anything to have to go up against the legendary HD 600 and HD 650 in the first place. Sennheiser may have just set the bar too high already.
With regards to the graphs, I see a lot of commentary about how they don't tell everything, and that's definitely true. Because headphone behavior changes depending on the head that's wearing it, what you see on the graph is never going to perfectly predict how it's going to sound to every individual. If you could measure at your own ear drum, the results would look slightly different from what you see on the graph in a few places, and even though individual HRTF would normalize it to be perceptually similar, the headphone transfer function itself can lead to some perceptual differences across listeners. However, while graphs don't tell us everything about how a headphone is going to sound to an individual, they certainly tell us something - especially in cases like this with a comparison to the HD 600 headphones that have identical coupling and mechanical design (acoustic design is slightly different).
In my view, while the HD 660 S2's extra sub-bass is nice, it's less relevant for most music than folks might think. Most musical information doesn't token the full frequency range down there, and the idea of "more bass" isn't exactly going on here. It's as someone else in this thread mentioned - deeper bass... not more bass - and while that's nice, it's not like we're talking about a massive change here. It's a subtle difference, and I tend to think for folks who are all about the sub-bass, this change isn't going to be particularly meaningful, which is also why I think the more relevant bit is the more relaxed upper mids - and that's definitely a key perceptual element of the tuning. Like, in my view it completely changes which types of music I listen to, and I'd say the HD 660 S2 is going to be a bit more forgiving for aggressive music like rock and metal, where certain tones can come across a bit glaring or biting on higher ear gain tunings like the HD 600. But for jazz, acoustic, classical and so on... the HD 600's tonal balance is still better to my ear.
My worry with the S2 comes from what happens when the pads wear in. On the other models, it caused the treble to relax significantly. This may lead to a more congested or muffled presentation on the S2 since its already quite relaxed in the upper mids as well. But we'll see on that. Maybe it just means replacing the pads more regularly.
Rob80b
Headphoneus Supremus
Jealous.... loljust had an email from sennheiser .....my s2 are on the way
whoohoo!
Interesting though.....
Rob80b
Headphoneus Supremus
Thanks for your observations....I'll find out soon enough about the "bass" but will have to go by memory and may have sold my 660S prematurely....but if the treble and mid range are similar to the "S" I'll be good.
BobG55
Formerly known as Old Groucho
is that a positive message or a negative one from Sennheiser ?Jealous.... lol
Interesting though.....
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I would like to know the difference between the new S2 and 660s with the oratory1990 eq that I use, my 660s sound very good with that eq profile and have more than enough bass, I even lowered the low-shelf bass by 2db from the oratory1990 as it in my thought was too exaggerated, so I really wonder what I have to gain by upgrading to S2?
lost&confused
100+ Head-Fier
it's being shipped from BIELEFELD - GERMANY with DHL , and I'm in the UKJealous.... lol
Interesting though.....
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