[erich6]

  I had fun switching back and forth until the wife bust into the room and asked me to turn down the volume...LOL!

 
And this is why I don't listen to speakers anymore...I barely get away with open back headphones!

 

[erich6]

  Now I mostly consume music on the go (late evening outdoor light exercise combined with music listening), so an investment in the HD 650 along with an decent dac/amp is not justified for me. But I guess I would like the closest sound of the HD 650 in a portable headphone
Would that be the Oppo PM-3? or other suggestions?

 
I highly recommend the Onkyo H500BT's.  Work great with AptX or AAC wireless or wired and it's a really good value (Best Buy has best price online right now...you can find them at the airport for $30 less).  Another option is the B&W P7 Wireless but those have more bass.

 

[LazyListener]

  To me superior means when a headphone is on a higher level in terms of transducer design and a level of sound details it can bring to live. None of 5xx headphones are superior over another in that matter. All of them share very similar capabilities and limitations, becasuse they come from the same family of headphones. That's why many people actually prefer HD518 and HD558 over 598's, thanks to slightly different tonality more to the liking of average consumer. Some people believe in a myth that between 5xx models there's a huge gap, especially between lower and highest end models. It really isn't, which was in recent years already confirmed multiple times by many respected reviewers and the price difference between them is totally unjastified. Both 598SE and CS represent same level of sound detail to my ears. It's more apparent in Cs thanks to closed design, but it doesn't show any details I couldn't hear on SE. Open design preference doesn't make any headphone superior to closed ones and seems you just prefer open. After listening to SE I came to realization that if I want both worlds in a form of open design, meaning spacious soundstage, and immersive experience, I'd have to go for something at least HD650 in sennheiser lineup. Immersion is so much better in Cs than SE. It's at the cost of soundstage becasuse again it's "just" 5xx model, but it gives warm dark kind of liquid tonality that I prefer over SE, regardless of CS's own flaws. That is something 598's unfortunetly doesn't posses, therefore is less enjoyable to listen to. Yes CS are less versitile headphone, but what's a con in watching movies is a pro when it comes to music, and that is the case with background sounds. They're more elevated in Cs, which can be sometimes weird in some movies, but it's a great benefit when listening to music. So to me SE are good versitle headphone for everything, but CS excels them for pure music experience, and they're not really that much useful for other purposes. 
In SE bass is not only light, it lacks definition, it's there but it's wooly. I can imagine it can be good bass for someone who prefers super flat analitical signatures. Anyone else who is still not a basshead, but prefers slightly more enjoyable warmer tonality will be left with desire for more. CS have textured crunchy and more extended punchy bass, even better than HD600. That bass along with closed design creates much more immersive experience. That's why youtubers like Aornic and DMS3 prefer them over SE, and so is the case with my preference and many others. I'm very curious about opinions of two other respected youtubers Zreviews and HiFi Man on that matter. Both of them soon will be reviewing CS. 
 
I read all reviews of SE, and in most of them gaming is brought to one of the most important, and in many cases most important aspect of buying headphones. At least that is the case on amazon.com reviews. This is nothing surprising since HD598 is one of the most recommended models to people who ask for a good pair of gaming headphones and initially looking for something like razer or beats. On he other hand, if look at the amazon.ca reviews most of them are focused purely on music. That's why in my opinion CS have 4.5 stars on amazon.ca
 
Originally 598 ivory were for 300$, then dropped to 250$ then dropped to 150$ as a regular not discounted price. Don't forget CS may be 99$ at the moment, but it's just a discountend limited time offer, not a regular price. Their regular price is still 249$, 100$ more than Ivory/SE.
"Used & new" containt open box returns too, and that's most cases there's barely any sealed units there, that's why I just look for one general number for comparison.
 
Right now CS have 62% 5-star review, while SE/ivory have 78%, but the latter have 10x more reviews, and before typical black friday wave of returns, CS had similar % of 5-star reviews. Does it make it spectacular for SE? No to me id doesn't. It would be spectacular if product had 90%+ 5-star reviews with overall 5-star score as well. Yes there are many products on amazon with this score.
 
I don't argue 598s are very good and one of the best open headphones in 150$ price range, but so are CS's. I think when it comes to pure sound quality regardless of design SHP9500 (they're very often compared to HD650's which is shocking to me) and sony's mdr1a can be better options, or even sennheiser's momentum 2 when they're on lightining deals. That is something I need to verify before I stick to given pair for good. I'll try to test 598's ivory as well after your thoughts about them vs SE's.

I don't know if average consumers like us can measure superiority in terms of transducer design.  Most of us are not audio engineers.  For most of us it's all about how they sound, or as you put it "a level of sound details it can bring to life."  The closer a headphone can sound to the real thing, a live performance, the better it is IMO.  That's why I think the open 598 sound superior to the Cs.  How much that has to do with open vs closed vs tonality vs possibly different drivers vs other tuning methods, I don't know.  It's impossible for me to quantify how much is due to this or that.  I only care about the end result - the sound they reproduce.  I just know the open 598 sound more natural and true to life to me.  That's why for me, they are superior sounding.  You obviously disagree, which is fine.
 
As far as the HD 650 goes, I've owned it for about a month now, and I don't consider it to be superior sounding over the 598, overall.  It does some things better than 598, while the 598 does some things better than the 650.  In the 650, I can hear the more neutral and balanced tonality, smoother and more refined vocals, and a bit more resolution/texture.  However, the 598 is more musical and engaging overall, due to more upper bass, warmer low mids, slightly boosted mid-treble, and a bigger soundstage.  So with those 2 cans, I would not say one is superior over the other, because both are very, very good.  Maybe if I had better amp for the 650, my opinion would change.  As it stands now, I prefer the more fun, engaging, and musical nature of the 598.
 
That "warm dark kind of liquid tonality" that you prefer in the Cs over the SE.........I prefer a warm headphone too, and if your SE sounded proper, you should have heard just enough warmth in the bass and low mids.  However, too much warmth, many will say sounds muddy, or lacks detail or transparency.  For example, I think the PX100-II sounded way too dark and warm for my taste.  Either you or someone else mentioned here that after listening to the Cs, then going back to the PX, the PX sounded muddy.  I think the 598 has just the right amount of warmth down low.  Again, maybe your SE sounded different than my ivory, or maybe you just prefer a much warmer and darker sound than I do.
 
I think you are confusing "immersion" with immediacy.  The open 598 definitely immerses you in the sound.  It's part of why gamers and movie watchers like them too.  You feel like you are in the middle of the crowd at a venue, surrounded by sound coming from various directions and distances.  So the open 598 definitely sound immersive to me.  From most of your posts, it seems you prefer a more immediate sound, like sitting in the first few rows of the venue, where the music is more immediate and in your face.  To me, that's too loud and blaring, and the music is too bunched up at that distance because it's played at a loud volume so it can fill the entire venue with sound, but that sounds too loud for the people sitting up close.  Another analogy is a movie theater.  The screen is huge.  Most people prefer to sit in the middle to the back of the theater.  Very few actually prefer to sit in the front because the image is just too large to take everything in all at once at that short distance.
 
Not all background sounds are elevated in the Cs.  The high mids, maybe low treble are elevated.  The low mids, high bass, and upper treble are recessed relative to the high mids and low treble that are elevated.  The open 598 are a more balanced headphone, only really lacking low bass (mid-high bass is fine).  I agree the low-mid bass on the Cs is better, at least in terms of level.  I don't agree that the bass in the 598 is "wooly" or lacks definition.  I listen to a lot of classic rock and individual bass guitar notes are clearly audible in the open 598.  Overall, I do think the Cs has better bass output.  Not sure I'd say one is more defined than the other in the bass.  I'd have to do closer listening comparisons to determine that.  As I've said before, I do think open 598 has better definition, detail, and resolution, overall (not just bass).
 
You read ALL reviews of the SE on Amazon.com?  Really?!  Wow, that must've taken a long time and have been pretty boring (or maybe not, maybe you enjoy that, lol).  I find most Amazon reviews useless when it comes to headphones, mostly because they are too short and don't offer enough information.  There's the occasional good and thorough review that's helpful.  Anyway, I doubt most buyers buy them for gaming.  I'd be willing to bet most use them for music, some for gaming, some for both.  Does it really matter??
 
Not sure where you're getting that original 598 originally sold for $300.  Camelcamelcamel's Amazon pricing history says otherwise.  My point was that it took years for the ivory 598 to drop from its $250 initial price to it's now roughly $150 price.  It's only been 3 months for Cs and one month after black friday special, and it's again selling for $100.  I understand black friday discount, but why discount them now?  Probably because they weren't selling that many at the higher prices, and they're not as expensive to manufacture so they can afford to sell them at that price and still make a decent profit.  If they could get acceptable sales numbers at $250 or $150, you don't think they would price them higher?
 
I'm sure there are many products on amazon with a 90% or more 5 star reviews, but we're discussing headphones here.  I think you set your criteria for "spectacular" too high.  Why?  Because even the HD 600, regarded by many as the best dynamic headphone in the world for many years, only manages an 85% 5 star rating.  So I guess what many regard as "the best dynamic headphone in the world" does not have spectacular amazon ratings to you?
 
I think you might enjoy Momentum 2.0.  I have not heard them personally, but they've been described as bassy, with rolled off treble.  I'm just not sure they'll have the forward mids that give the immediacy that you're looking for, because the bass might overpower the mids.  I'd be interested in reading your impressions if you get them, along with the SHP9500.

 

[LazyListener]

   
Honsestly 90% of your post has nothing to do with my thoughts, so I don't understand why you elaborated on all of the above... I feel like your replying to someone else...
I agree in general open design have advantage over closed ones, just because they're opened. For that reason I think all of the most expensive flagship headpohnes like HD800, Orpheus etc are open. But HD800 to many sound so wide to the point of being artificial, so it's not always a good thing if it's too wide and spacious. But we're not talking about high-end headphones so in that regard 598SE don't neccessery have to win just for the fact they're opens. Nowadays many closed back cans easily compete with many open cans. HD598Cs have narrower soundstage but still wide for closed design and not that far behind to 598SE. CS are immersive more intimate, while SE being more spacious and bright, but none of them have both characteristics. That's why I said probably HD650 could be the perfect mix of both. I lean towards warmer immersive experience that's why I prefer CS over SE, and I don't need to be lectured how music should sound like just because I prefer different tonality than someone else. If someone is so much accustomed to open design with very wide soundstage than of course he opt for SE. I disagree that it makes one headphone better than the other, because it's just a matter of preference. And don't forget sound quality is very subjective. I never said SE sounds bad, I specificly mentioned SE's being much more versitile all arounders than CS, but the latter is more to my liking when it comes to music only. Still, there are probably some tracks I would choose SE, and there are some tracks that sound weird on CS. It doesn't really change the fact I tested them both on multiple music genres and favourite records and CS are clear winners TO ME for listening to most music tracks I like to listen to. CS gave me more joy that's my preference I don't see why anyone should argue with that..? If SE's would sound more like 650's than I'd probably choose them over CS without a glimpse, but they don't because they're 5xx series headphones and they will never be anything better than what 5xx has to offer.
 
I never said I'm pissed for buying SE and CS. In fact I may even go back to CS if I'm not satisfied with other options. And like I said, just because both of you praising so much SE over CS as if there was a huge gap in sound quality between them, I'm gonna have to go to some store and test ivory version for that reason alone.

Have you ever had extended listening time with the HD 650, because in all of the posts you mentioned them, you say things like they "may" be what you're looking for?
 
Also, why do you feel the need to listen to the ivory again if you already owned them previously?

 

[LazyListener]

   
Thank you very much, very helpful and informative. If this is the amount and quality of your writing on your lazy moments, I can imagine what it would be when you're in the mood 

That's called passion.
 
I asked this, because with many headphones I find the need to EQ-tweak the upper midrange to my liking and to a more natural sound of the vocals, with less acutes and more warmth. This happened with M50x (when I had them), with MDR-1A (to a lesser degree), KSC75, HD 598SE and to the largest degree with the new HD 598 Cs that sounds off in the vocal department to me. Don't need to do this with the SoundTrue II and PX 100-II, although with the PX 100-II I need a bit more air in the highs so maybe 2 dB up on treble.
 
This led me to think maybe I don't need more expensive headphones with more resolution and detail retrieval because more often that translates to harsh sound to me, given the fact that I cannot always listen to a reference recording. And at the end of the day I don't want to end up buying expensive equipment just to be able to listen only to a select amount of music.
 
But what you say about HD 650 leads me to believe that's not always the case and that a good headphone can be forgiving, and a better more expensive driver may give that effortless, natural sound of vocals that you describe.
I'm basically looking for the sound that a decent loudspeaker set produces. I don't often hear shrill vocals out of speakers, but a more natural live-like sound to them. Of course a great deal of that is because the sound has enough room to travel and breathe between the speaker and the ear. But that's the sound I'm looking for also in headphones. Not necessarily ultimate resolution, extension and detail retrieval but natural, musical sound, but not at the point of being dull of muffled. I'm sorry to say but the closest headphone that sounds like that to me is the Bose SoundTrue Around-Ear II, although they clearly lack the resolution and speed of more technically capable headphones. Maybe that's why they are called SoundTrue
With just a little tweak the HD 598SE are much better than the SoundTrues, but they need tweaking and they're open back so naturally more natural sounding
 
I had the chance to listen to a friend's HD 650 for just a song, when I tried my 598 with his dac/amp and I remember when switching from 598 to 650 they sounded more natural but there was to little time to make a proper impression. I have no problem and actually like what people call "the veil". The Sennheiser veil takes off the edges and makes the headphone sound more like a speaker, more natural, so that's a plus to me.
 
Now I mostly consume music on the go (late evening outdoor light exercise combined with music listening), so an investment in the HD 650 along with an decent dac/amp is not justified for me. But I guess I would like the closest sound of the HD 650 in a portable headphone
Would that be the Oppo PM-3? or other suggestions?
 
LE: Great tip about comparing the FR graphs, why didn't I think of that?

I had the Oppo PM-3 for a while.  Excellent detail and speed.  Electronic music like Skrillex sounds amazing.  You will literally hear detail and texture you've not heard before.  Gotta be the speed of the planar magnetic design responsible for that.  However, soundstage is poor, even for a closed back.  Plus, I don't think you'd enjoy the tonality.  They sound a bit thin.  They have fairly neutral bass, somewhat rolled off highs, but the mids lack warmth, fullness, and body.  For this reason, to me, they sound too cold, sterile, and analytical, and not musical like the 598s we both know.  But man, that detail on Skrillex is something special.  Not so obvious with real music

 
 
Edit:  If you're looking for cans that sound more like speakers, the only advice I have is for the 2 I've heard that were specifically designed/tuned after looking at speaker FR in a room.  Those are the PSB M4U 1 and the NAD Viso HP50.  PSB are a bit mid-forward.  NAD are more neutral/warm.  Both have pretty good soundstage for closed backs.  Both look funky on your head - PSB too big, and NAD with a weird shaped headband.  Maybe PSB or NAD have newer designs with their RoomFeel technology.  2 best closed backs I've heard thus far.

 

[KopaneDePooj]

 
I had the Oppo PM-3 for a while.  Excellent detail and speed.  Electronic music like Skrillex sounds amazing.  You will literally hear detail and texture you've not heard before.  Gotta be the speed of the planar magnetic design responsible for that.  However, soundstage is poor, even for a closed back.  Plus, I don't think you'd enjoy the tonality.  They sound a bit thin.  They have fairly neutral bass, somewhat rolled off highs, but the mids lack warmth, fullness, and body.  For this reason, to me, they sound too cold, sterile, and analytical, and not musical like the 598s we both know.  But man, that detail on Skrillex is something special.  Not so obvious with real music

 
 
Edit:  If you're looking for cans that sound more like speakers, the only advice I have is for the 2 I've heard that were specifically designed/tuned after looking at speaker FR in a room.  Those are the PSB M4U 1 and the NAD Viso HP50.  PSB are a bit mid-forward.  NAD are more neutral/warm.  Both have pretty good soundstage for closed backs.  Both look funky on your head - PSB too big, and NAD with a weird shaped headband.  Maybe PSB or NAD have newer designs with their RoomFeel technology.  2 best closed backs I've heard thus far.

 
Thank you!
Then I guess I'll stay with the SoundTrues for now for portable, the sound of midrange you describe with the PM-3 is exactly what I don't like.
Yeah, I can't stand the design of that HP50 headband, it looks like this. That's too bad because I could get them at a decent price locally - 175 EUR. No new headphones on NAD or PSB website.

 

[gargani]

Has anyone seen, heard of, or come across, a back to back comparison between the Sennheiser 598cs and the Sennheiser HD 569? I can get a pair of 569's at my local Best Buy store for $199 cad. OR a pair of 598cs from amazon.ca for $129 cad.
I know the manufacturer specs. are the same,but I would like to know if there are any differences,that would justify the difference in price.

 

[KopaneDePooj]

Has anyone seen, heard of, or come across, a back to back comparison between the Sennheiser 598cs and the Sennheiser HD 569? I can get a pair of 569's at my local Best Buy store for $199 cad. OR a pair of 598cs from amazon.ca for $129 cad.
I know the manufacturer specs. are the same,but I would like to know if there are any differences,that would justify the difference in price.

I asked Sennheiser about any difference in sound maybe more than a month ago and got no answer...
I think they sound the same, 598 CS is just amazon exclusive.

 

[gargani]

I asked Sennheiser about any difference in sound maybe more than a month ago and got no answer...
I think they sound the same, 598 CS is just amazon exclusive.

Thanks for the response. Yes, no one seems to know,definitively; and Sennheiser isn't saying.Looking at the pictures they look slightly different; but the same drivers, the same specs., would lead one to think they sound the same.But there is always the possibility that there are some subtle differences in the sound. But who Knows?

 

[LazyListener]

Thanks for the response. Yes, no one seems to know,definitively; and Sennheiser isn't saying.Looking at the pictures they look slightly different; but the same drivers, the same specs., would lead one to think they sound the same.But there is always the possibility that there are some subtle differences in the sound. But who Knows?

The fact that Sennheiser isn't saying speaks volumes.  They wouldn't want to potentially hurt sales of the more expensive "house" model, the 569.  Amazon has a ton of purchasing power, so when they do an Amazon exclusive model with Sennheiser, they probably buy tens of thousands at a huge discount, and can afford to sell them for less than the standard model.  The SE situation is a bit different because the ivory 598 have been around for a long time and were already selling for much less than their initial price when the SE came out.
 
They're probably the same except for the minor cosmetic differences.  But like you said, they may have different tuning.  Can't be sure without doing a back to back listen of both.

 

[gargani]

The fact that Sennheiser isn't saying speaks volumes.  They wouldn't want to potentially hurt sales of the more expensive "house" model, the 569.  Amazon has a ton of purchasing power, so when they do an Amazon exclusive model with Sennheiser, they probably buy tens of thousands at a huge discount, and can afford to sell them for less than the standard model.  The SE situation is a bit different because the ivory 598 have been around for a long time and were already selling for much less than their initial price when the SE came out.

They're probably the same except for the minor cosmetic differences.  But like you said, they may have different tuning.  Can't be sure without doing a back to back listen of both.

 

[gargani]

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[gargani]

Boxing week sale is over at Amazon.ca. The 598cs have gone from $129 cad. to $260 cad. Wow. The hd569 is still $199 cad. That boxing week sale was better than I thought.

 

[LazyListener]

Boxing week sale is over at Amazon.ca. The 598cs have gone from $129 cad. to $260 cad. Wow. The hd569 is still $199 cad. That boxing week sale was better than I thought.

Wow, that's a huge price change.  The $99 "limited time offer" on Amazon.com also expired.  Still only $115 now and no longer listed as "limited time offer" but no doubt the price will fluctuate over time, as it almost always does.

 

[Sladeophile]

Listening to these with my Xduoo XD-05 with Burson upgrade is really fun. Punchy and detailed, a very fun sound. I definitely recommend the pairing for a great match!