[wallijonn]

mike,

so you really think your 100,000 mile car drives as well as your new 10 miles on the odometer car? you really think your hard drive with 3 years rotation will last forever? you've never had to change a light bulb because it's gas was all used up? never bought a new TV or a pair of jeans to replace the old? pencils, pens and paper don't last forever, either, i've heard. keyboards go bad. and sooner or later you'll end up having to buy a new mattress. you think you'll hear as well at 80 as you do at 8? you think headphones sound the same in Seattle during the rainy season as they go in Phoenix's drought season? headphones sound the same at 10,000 feet as they do at -20? (top of Pike's Peak versus New Orleans). you really think that foam surround does not deform faster in the Caribbean than they do in Norway in January?

burn-in: heat. friction. plastic. metal. oxidation. gravity. age.

what's not to understand?

btw, buying two headphones new may not yield acceptable proof. they would have to come from the same batches, usually within one serial number in difference; they must both be made on the same day, at the same time, and stored directly next to each other to have any chance of a good comparison.

does a loose string tennis racket make the same sound as a tight string tennis racket? ever had to restring your tennis racket? still playing with your original tennis ball? the rubber handle hasn't worn down even a little these past 5 years? ever had to cut your finger nails?

 

[SageOHaze]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scarpitti The avatar? Yeah, that's a picture of me holding the rare Fila Composite wooden tennis racquet. Has a graphite layer to add strength.

mind posting one where we can actually see you? i mean it's pretty small..

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by wallijonn mike, so you really think your 100,000 mile car drives as well as your new 10 miles on the odometer car? you really think your hard drive with 3 years rotation will last forever? you've never had to change a light bulb because it's gas was all used up? never bought a new TV or a pair of jeans to replace the old? pencils, pens and paper don't last forever, either, i've heard. keyboards go bad. and sooner or later you'll end up having to buy a new mattress. you think you'll hear as well at 80 as you do at 8? you think headphones sound the same in Seattle during the rainy season as they go in Phoenix's drought season? headphones sound the same at 10,000 feet as they do at -20? (top of Pike's Peak versus New Orleans). you really think that foam surround does not deform faster in the Caribbean than they do in Norway in January? burn-in: heat. friction. plastic. metal. oxidation. gravity. age. what's not to understand? btw, buying two headphones new may not yield acceptable proof. they would have to come from the same batches, usually within one serial number in difference; they must both be made on the same day, at the same time, and stored directly next to each other to have any chance of a good comparison. does a loose string tennis racket make the same sound as a tight string tennis racket? ever had to restring your tennis racket? still playing with your original tennis ball? the rubber handle hasn't worn down even a little these past 5 years? ever had to cut your finger nails?

Your points ARE correct, and all are arguments from analogy. But the question remains, whether they apply HERE. You will note that some parts with just the slightest bit of inaccuracy are unusable. Inaccuracy will result either in severe underperformance or outright failure. Leica cameras and lenses, for instance, are manufactured to the highest standards of form, assembly, fit and finish, of any. No-one else even comes close. The surface of a Leica lens is polished to tolerances 1/100 or better than that of Nikon or Canon. If it isn't, the quality drops significantly. Centering is likewise critical. In parts that are subject to wear, materials must be chosen that maintain their shape and strength for a long time. In the case of the Stax diaphragm, it is a moving part, but one manufactured to VERY tight tolerances. I can scarcely imagine that it can get 'looser' in the same sense that a dynamic surround can. It cannot stretch (I believe) and continue to work properly.

One of the arts of manufacturing is to design products so that the parts DON'T wear so easily. Lubrication, choice of materials, etc, are crucial. Keeping your engine properly lubricated (to follow up your example) will result in minimal wear. In the case of Leica lenses, materials and lubricants are chosen that will allow millions of operations without failure. The prices reflect this. Being out in the wild or on news assignment with your Leica is more than some assurance that you will bring back not only great photos, but that you will bring them back! (I happen to know a lot about Leica, and have been to the factory in Germany. I have continuously used a Leicaflex SL2 camera since I bought it in 1976.)

No, I just cannot accept that a Stax diaphragm stretches in any significant way, unless I hear it from them, and explained carefully by them.

 

[zeplin]

wallijonn,

I completely understand what you are saying and you've done a superb job in describing how anything and everything changes over time...sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. But it's sad to say that Mike will not buy this for many other personal reasons other than being as stubborn as an old goat

After all, he hasn't bought anything anybody has been trying to tell him ever since I first knew of his existence...even something as simple as objectivity has proven to be hard for him to comprehend. So I urge you to save your breath for another head-fier that will actually listen to what you have to say and will respect your knowledge...as do I

And to think, Mike could have actually learned a lot, like I have done, from all these well-educated head-fiers duing these past couple of days....wow what a concept...learning from others

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by zeplin wallijonn, I completely understand what you are saying and you've done a superb job in describing how anything and everything changes over time...sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

I applaud your efforts to 'educate' me. Yes, I am aware that things change....sometimes. Some things, however, are designed and manufactured to change as little as possible, as I decribe in my previous post.

You can operate some Leica cameras and lenses for MANY times the life of other products.Shutters, diaphragms, etc, are all subject to wear, but with Leica this wear is almost non-existent. I took my 20 year-old Leicaflex SL2 to Germany in 1995, where the mechanisms were given basic tests as a courtesy. No problems. It was within tolerances.

It's all a matter of tolerances, and how long they can be maintained. That's all we're talking about.

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by SageOHaze mind posting one where we can actually see you? i mean it's pretty small..

 

[NewSc2]

Quote:

Originally posted by SageOHaze mind posting one where we can actually see you? i mean it's pretty small..

I don't see why, I mean, we don't even get to see most people here at all, much less a small pic of them.

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by NewSc2 I don't see why, I mean, we don't even get to see most people here at all, much less a small pic of them.

Why not show us a close-up of those headphone-wearin babes in your avatar?

 

[ManiacSmile]

Even though I was on the other side of the river all the time we were debating about existence of break-in, I think I'll join Mike on this thread. Electrostatic diaphragm is so thin, that regular mechanical alterations would be so insignificant that I doubt human ear is capable of noticing the difference. With electrostatics, other things come into play, like surface tension. I would rather believe that burn-in of the headphone cable or electrostats - amp combination are to be blamed, but not the changes of physical characteristics of the diaphragm

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacSmile Even though I was on the other side of the river all the time we were debating about existence of break-in, I think I'll join Mike on this thread. Electrostatic diaphragm is so thin, that regular mechanical alterations would be so insignificant that I doubt human ear is capable of noticing the difference. With electrostatics, other things come into play, like surface tension. I would rather believe that burn-in of the headphone cable or electrostats - amp combination are to be blamed, but not the changes of physical characteristics of the diaphragm

Well, hold on, 'cause this is what Stax says:

"Dear Sir,

We thank you for your inquiry.

Earspeaker has an aging period to constitute it with a vibration part same as a loudspeaker.
Because it is made of moderate tension, a diaphragm has tensile a little "dispersion."
This dispersion is improved slowly by using it.
You sound normal music with moderate volume, and a period is necessary for around 6 months for
three months.

The following company is our authorized distributor in USA.
If you have other question, please contact them.

Yama’s Enterprises, Inc.
16617 S. Normandie Ave., Suite C,
Gardena, California 90247,
U.S.A.
Tel 1-310-327-3913
Fax 1-310-324-7422
E-mail stax@yamasinc.com
http://www.yamasinc.com/Stax_Dealers.htm

Thank you very much for interest to our products.

Best regards,

*******************************
electrostatic audio products
STAX Ltd. http://www.stax.co.jp
K. Suzuki suzuki@stax.co.jp
Web manager

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacSmile Even though I was on the other side of the river all the time we were debating about existence of break-in, I think I'll join Mike on this thread. Electrostatic diaphragm is so thin, that regular mechanical alterations would be so insignificant that I doubt human ear is capable of noticing the difference. With electrostatics, other things come into play, like surface tension. I would rather believe that burn-in of the headphone cable or electrostats - amp combination are to be blamed, but not the changes of physical characteristics of the diaphragm

Well, hold on, 'cause this is what Stax says:

"Dear Sir,

We thank you for your inquiry.

Earspeaker has an aging period to constitute it with a vibration part same as a loudspeaker.
Because it is made of moderate tension, a diaphragm has tensile a little "dispersion."
This dispersion is improved slowly by using it.
You sound normal music with moderate volume, and a period is necessary for around 6 months for
three months.

The following company is our authorized distributor in USA.
If you have other question, please contact them.

Yama’s Enterprises, Inc.
16617 S. Normandie Ave., Suite C,
Gardena, California 90247,
U.S.A.
Tel 1-310-327-3913
Fax 1-310-324-7422
E-mail stax@yamasinc.com
http://www.yamasinc.com/Stax_Dealers.htm

Thank you very much for interest to our products.

Best regards,

*******************************
electrostatic audio products
STAX Ltd. http://www.stax.co.jp
K. Suzuki suzuki@stax.co.jp
Web manager

Here's my reply:

Dear Sir:

I'm sorry, I don't understand your reply. Perhaps problems with language barrier.

Kind regards,

Mike Scarpitti

 

[PeterR]

I think what they want to tell you is their phones need a quarter to half a year of playing to reach optimum performance...

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR I think what they want to tell you is their phones need a quarter to half a year of playing to reach optimum performance...

I forwarded Stax Japan's reply to my inquiry to Stax USA,with my comment, which reads:

"I inquired whether there was a break-in period for Stax earspeakers. This was the reply, unintelligible to me.

Is there such a period? If so, why?"

 

[JaZZ]

I guess he wanted to tell that the mechanical tension is unequally dispersed on the diaphragm in the initial state.

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by JaZZ I guess he wanted to tell that the mechanical tension is unequally dispersed on the diaphragm in the initial state.

It may be safe to say that this is not exactly what any of us anticipated. It is not exactly what we call 'burning in' either, is it? The question is does the sound characteristic change.