[NEXTLEVEL5]

Apologies in advance if this was answered already but for initial burn-in does the Yggy only need to be on, or do I need to be feeding it constant music through optical/usb?

 

[US Blues]

Apologies in advance if this was answered already but for initial burn-in does the Yggy only need to be on, or do I need to be feeding it constant music through optical/usb?

Just leave it on, you'll be fine.

 

[the finisher]

Personally I let Yaggy and my Jot run in for about a week in the basement on cheap HP's before I evaluated the sound much. But I'm kinda anal about making my first impressions accurate on any piece of gear. I burned in my silver cables too, I don't know if it really matters but I have plenty to do while I waited.

 

[433521]

IMO, regardless of whether or not one places any credence in measurements, and regardless of whether or not Amirm's measurements are good, bad, true or false, **Schiit** should offer into evidence measurements of their own. Clearly they must have something to offer.

Why should they offer their own measurements? Buy it, don't, w/e ...

 

[433521]

Your posts so far seem information-free. Is there anything you have to offer that advances the discussion of the data at hand?

Time for the cat pics ...

 

[amirm]

The best way to go forward would be to recognise that Jude likely has the better equipment set-up from a current industry standard - and propose that we use it initially to measure the same equipment using the same method.

I loved reading everything you said but this line. . As I showed earlier, I now own the identical analyzer from Audio Precision (APx555) that Jude has in addition to the one I used for my Schiit measurements at the time. I showed a picture of it earlier:

The APx555 is the top one. The bottom was on loan from Audio Precision for me to evaluate. Alas, that unit only matched my 20 year old AP so I had no "choice" but to purchase the top of the line unit. I could buy a brand new car or that unit. I opted to drive the older car and buy the unit.

One of the main reasons I bought the APx555 was to make it easier to exchange project files/settings with others since it is more current gear. To that end and to the point of your post, Jude has reached out to me to see if we can replicate each other's measurements (using AP's loopback as I have shown elsewhere) there so that we are both using the same configuration. We will see where that goes.

I think we can sort out any disagreement by shipping some DACs back and forth and I for one am happy to pay all expenses for these. I do plan to go to RMAF and if Jude will be there, we could do more in person then (fall).

 

[the finisher]

 

[amirm]

Hozzzabout tell how your measurments corrlate with sound quality?

Explained here: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-audio-measurements.2351/

I will be writing a much more extensive article for a magazine over summer on this topic.

Let me know if your banned status on ASR Forum stops you from reading it (just go there as visitor if so).

 

[stalepie]

Forums shouldn't ban people.

 

[amirm]

He claims engineering prowess, but has never designed. a flip-flop.

I have designed plenty of flip-flops. I am most famous for this one:

I must admit some failures such as this one:

I love sushi so thought others like me would love it. But get this: people complained it stank too much!!! No accounting for taste.

For you portable DAC users, I designed this one:

It charges your portable DAC as you walk. Alas, people said I should have used oxygen free cable for the charger and as such, it did not sound good. I measured it, and boy they were right.... So I am in the process of retrofitting OFC there. So if you are interested, check back with me in a few weeks.

Thanks for your interest in my background in this regard. Much appreciated.

 

[Ojisan]

Just saw this - and really have no skin in the game (at all). Would like to experience some gear from Schiit at some stage - but unfortunately not that easy to get in NZ (I'll get around to it at some stage in the future - really interested in the Loki and Vali at some stage).

I've only read the last 10 pages or so - and its likely I've missed a lot, but I do have some observations which may be worth thinking about:

What we (or at least I) am aware of:

1. Jude's whole measurement set-up installation was over-seen by the manufacturers of the equipment (especially AP). So its set up according to their recommendations. They've also assisted him with calibration and methodology to make sure he's using what they consider best practise.
2. We know amirm is using very good quality Audio Precision gear, and has years of experience in the industry
3. We know they are using different equipment - and can surmise they are likely to be using similar method, but different overall parameters
4. We know (in the current debate) they measured different topologies, and used different overall parameters.

Here's what would help:

1. For everyone to stop the personal attacks, and actually recognise we have two people essentially measuring different things on different equipment. No conclusion can be made based on this.
2. For everyone to stop with the assumption that amirm has bias against Schiit, and Jude has bias for them. Lets let the measurements speak.
3. The best way to go forward would be to recognise that Jude likely has the better equipment set-up from a current industry standard - and propose that we use it initially to measure the same equipment using the same method.

What i'd like to see (if possible) would be for amirm to arrange a trip to Head-Fi HQ to see Jude's set-up, and work with him to produce a single set of measurements. I'd like to see them produce those measurements for both balanced and unbalanced - and agree on a single set of parameters. I'd like them to publish them on both websites (the measurements will be the same, the conclusions can obviously be different).

I'd then like to see the same unit tested on amirm's gear with Jude reciprocating by going to amirm's measurement set-up. I'd like the same parameters used, and I'd like to see the differences. I'd then like an unbiased observer (an expert from Audio Precision) weigh in on why there are differences, and what really matters.

Out of all of this - we'd actually learn something (and both Jude and amirm could too - both could contribute to each other's overall experience). We might also start seeing sites who do measure come to a more common methodology - so we could avoid the name calling and complete lack of empathy we're seeing in this current thread. We might also discover some simple truths - and then we could have an informative discussion.

The next steps lie with amirm and Jude. If there is a cost to all of this, I'm more than happy to donate $5-$10 to make it happen. If we could get a 100 or so others to do likewise, and also have both Schiit and AP chip in - I'm betting its a possibility. This way everyone wins.

My 2c fwiw..

I think this is a very nice constructive suggestion. My work involves the design of much higher frequency components where every micron of trace difference, connector/cable material length, etc matters. I have seen the same emotional battle among microwave amplifier designers and measurement experts. Today's flood of posts has been quite entertaining (and a familiar one at that)

One of the best practices that have come out of microwave industry and standardization for manufacturers and measurement companies is to come together with measurement data on a set of agreed upon conditions (this is not always easy but it can be done). In addition to the absolute calibration for a given setup, the relative calibration provides a much better idea of what the data is saying, which is ultimately the best service to the community. Of course, each measurement expert can then add additional data which they feel are important. Those incremental efforts often bring new insight and understanding.

As much as I love listening to my music, I also have a desire to understand how some sonic characteristics can be characterized. I'm personally not giving up on that, so this topic is very interesting. With so many measurement experts today, I think this is a real opportunity to understand the sonic traits and how it could translate to personal preferences.

Now, I'm going back to enjoying Pat Metheny through my Yggy

 

[Xcalibur255]

I know that this will likely offend some, but with age comes wisdom. And my age has gotten me to a stage of wisdom where I realize that not all things we as humans perceive can be measured. Our auditory system (including the brain) is far too complex for the dozen or so measurements some have seemingly settled on as the 'holy grail' of performance and sound. How does one measure soundstage? How does one measure 'air' around instruments or their placement and richness? Which stat tells you that this amp or DAC has more timbre and layers? How does one measure the emotional involvement imparted by music on some setups? And let's not even get into the synergy of the complimentary components in the system. If all I listened to was test tones, etc., then I would base my decisions solely on specs. I don't know for sure, but I suspect I am not in the minority in saying I do not listen to test frequencies, sweeps, square waves, etc., but invest my time in listening to MUSIC.

I'm certainly not wise enough regarding measuring of electronics performance so I cannot say one set of measurements is right and the other is wrong. The one thing I am comfortable in saying is that some some stuff sounds really good and some stuff sounds really bad -- irrespective of how it measures. We humans are far too complex to distill our interaction with music to a handful of graphs, numbers and plots. Say what you will, whether an objectivist or subjectivist -- my Schiit sounds pretty darn good, and I am not alone in thinking that.

Very well stated. This is kind of what I was getting at when I posted my comment a couple of days ago. The ultimate goal of ALL of this is to enjoy music right? To feel good, emotionally connected. I respect that people like Amir are in the hobby for what seem like very different reasons. Scientific curiosity and analytical thinking intersected with music. But while that is perfectly fine, the presence of what always seems like an agenda to convince people whose motives are NOT along those lines to buy this and not that just seems........ misplaced at best and suspicious at worst.

Now that I'm solidly middle age myself I really feel I understand your sentiments. Our perceptions change over time, and how I listen to music has changed over time. What I cared about 10 years ago and what I care about now are quite different in terms of achieving enjoyment from listening to music. I too have steadily come to care less and less about the fact and number side of the game as time goes by. Finding just the right gear is never easy, but the litmus test for knowing when I've found the right gear has become very simple in recent years. There is a certain "button" that needs to be pressed in terms of emotional response. If that happens then I'm happy. The "stats" of that piece of gear are completely immaterial at that point for me.

 

[NEXTLEVEL5]

Personally I let Yaggy and my Jot run in for about a week in the basement on cheap HP's before I evaluated the sound much. But I'm kinda anal about making my first impressions accurate on any piece of gear. I burned in my silver cables too, I don't know if it really matters but I have plenty to do while I waited.

Makes sense. Thanks

 

[Brooko]

I loved reading everything you said but this line. . As I showed earlier, I now own the identical analyzer from Audio Precision (APx555) that Jude has in addition to the one I used for my Schiit measurements at the time. I showed a picture of it earlier:

The APx555 is the top one. The bottom was on loan from Audio Precision for me to evaluate. Alas, that unit only matched my 20 year old AP so I had no "choice" but to purchase the top of the line unit. I could buy a brand new car or that unit. I opted to drive the older car and buy the unit.

One of the main reasons I bought the APx555 was to make it easier to exchange project files/settings with others since it is more current gear. To that end and to the point of your post, Jude has reached out to me to see if we can replicate each other's measurements (using AP's loopback as I have shown elsewhere) there so that we are both using the same configuration. We will see where that goes.

I think we can sort out any disagreement by shipping some DACs back and forth and I for one am happy to pay all expenses for these. I do plan to go to RMAF and if Jude will be there, we could do more in person then (fall).

Then I apologise if I wasn't clear. The folks from AP spent considerable time helping Jude with his set-up of the AP, including guidance on how to use the gear properly and also the parameters he is using. We only know the gear you use - we do not know the set-up. Did AP spend the same time with you, and are you using the same set-up (especially as far as parameters go)? And that is my whole point. If we are all looking for truth (and I believe we are), then the obvious way is for you both to measure the same gear on the same equipment at the same settings. You witness Judes. He witnesses yours. You then compare the measurements - look at the differences, and get an independent body (AP) to try and explain what those differences are. If the two of you can do this by simply swapping configuration settings remotely - then that would be great. And its fantastic to see you collaborating on this - well done.

The reason I trust Judes set-up at the moment is that I know he took great pains to isolate the measurement equipment from anything that could affect the readings. He also measures multiple times to look for outliers and consistency.

You said yourself that you were time limited in your measurement of the Yggy, and although you seem to have measured the balanced output as well - you published very little about it. Rather than me suggesting there is an agenda here - my preference would be to re conduct the tests using established and common method (and lets get AP to look over the parameters and corroborate them first).

There are two things to establish:

1. Full measurement suite of the Yggy bal and SE - using the same Yggy and under the same conditions (warm up time etc) with the same measurement parameters.
2. We do it on Judes set-up and your set-up. Then we compare, and if there are differences we learn why.

As an EE - I know you can appreciate why I'm suggesting this. its not to discredit anyone or anything else. Its simply to learn and establish where truth exists (it could indeed be somewhere between your two measurements). It just needs commitment to make it happen.

I'll look forward to the results when you two manage to make it happen.

 

[the finisher]

So tonight I went back to comparing the OG 4490 D/S dac in the Jot compared to the TOTL Yaggy. So, cheapest to most expensive in the stack.

4490 connected to P/C with iFi usb gizmo and an Analysis + usb cable, Yaggy BCN as in my sig.

Incidentally I ordered a black Jot as a amp only, Schiit installed the dac as a nice freebie, kinda like how some got Yggy v2 for $100 less than I paid. Guess I got a $100 break of sorts too.
I assume this is because the transition to the upgraded 4490 dac for the Lyr 3 and Jot multi-bit roll out was at the same time. They were not going to sell the old stock.
I will actually use it too. When I move Yaggy to the living room system it will give one PC sound in the studio. But I'm only buying 1 TOTL dac so Yaggy is moving between my 2 systems.

Anyway, the sound differences. With my speaker setup the sound stage with the 4490 is flat and somewhat narrow compared to Yaggy. The overall sound is really crap by comparison.
With the LCD X's the most noticeable difference is the lack of micro detail. Bass slam is also lacking, or rather sloppy by comparison.
I really have no desire to listen to music though this dac, cause now I'm spoiled by Yaggy.

The fact that Yaggy is a bit perfect dac, in that it retains all the original data front to back is the real deal. D/S dac's are an interpretation of the original data.
Yaggy's output is the data, and I've been waiting decades to hear digital finally be this awesome. MM =

I've been listening to my old lame 16 bit CD's and really am hearing them for the first time. It's not just Yaggy, as I spent thousands on new great gear to go around it.
But it is the center of both my systems as far as how good they can sound. I will upgrade everything before I'd ever replace this DAC.

Can't wait for the next upgrade