[earnmyturns]

  I have found the Singxer F-1 DDC to be a great addition to my computer to Yggdrasil chain. The output from the Singxer F-1 is SPDIF coax, but that seems to work much better than USB. The Singxer seems to deal with the USB crap better than Yggdrasil and feeds a clean well clocked SPDIF signal to Yggdrasil. To isolate the computer systems side of the chain from the audio systems side of the chain even more, I will be inserting a UpTone Audio ISO Regen (using an UpTone Audio LPS-1 power supply) between the computer and Singxer F-1. I will plug the ISO Regen into the Singxer using an UpTone Audio USPCB connector. This is a USB to USB printed circuit board that passes a near perfect USB signal through unlike a USB cable. This setup will provide the Singxer F-1 with a near perfect USB signal and very clean DC power.
 
I may try a DDC that has an AES/EBU output someday. I want to see what The Schiit Audio Eitr is before I make any more decisions.

I'm leaning towards the theory that getting AES to the Yggy is what matters most, not what you do upstream of a good AES source. With AES into the Yggy, the USB receiver within the DAC and its noise are out of the picture. There may be better AES DDCs than the SU-1, but I would go light on USB mumbo-jumbo upstream of the DDC (cables, decrapifiers) since a good DDC does what matters, put out a well-clocked, balanced S/PDIF signal on the AES/EBU cable.

 

[winders]

  I'm leaning towards the theory that getting AES to the Yggy is what matters most, not what you do upstream of a good AES source. With AES into the Yggy, the USB receiver within the DAC and its noise are out of the picture. There may be better AES DDCs than the SU-1, but I would go light on USB mumbo-jumbo upstream of the DDC (cables, decrapifiers) since a good DDC does what matters, put out a well-clocked, balanced S/PDIF signal on the AES/EBU cable.

Well, my plan is to add the ISO Regen to my chain and see what improvement, if any, there is to the sound quality. I strongly believe the Singxer F-1 handles USB crap better than the Yggdrasil does. I also believe the SPDIF input of Yggdrasil is quite good. I think my setup sounds fantastic now. If there is no improvement, I will just fine with that!

 

[winders]

  No, no SU-1 audition.  Of course, once I spent a $1000 on the Mutec, I had very little interest in trying other D2D converters....  One thing I do know is that Mutec's last firmware update made an amazing improvement!  And although I'm not a measurement guy, the Mutec's specs are amazing.

It is an awesome unit. No where have a read anyone saying anything but positive things about it. I might just have to buy a used one at some point to try.

 

[johnjen]

  @johnjen What is the Eitr? 

It is a new product that Schiit is working on and hopefully will be bringing to market.
 
My speculation is it's a DDC that will do a 'better' job of isolating the noise and other types of contamination from the digital audio signal as it passes from the source to the dac.
 
There is scant info and only vague hints as to its configuration and performance thus far.
But if MM and the Schiit crew manage to get it fulfill the hints and speculation surrounding it, it could be the best for the least expensive solution for these annoying issues thus far.
 
We'll see, and hopefully soon enough.
 
JJ

 

[johnzz4]

Aw crap!  I just spent $1100 on a Wireworld USB!  Any informed opinions as to what AES works well/ the best with the Yggy?

I tried DH Labs, Wireworld Equinox and Mogami... ended up with a Wireworld Gold which I was finally happy with. Ended up doing the Gold series XLR interconnects out of the Yggy too. Oh, and the nano platinum eclipse for the balanced HP cable. Very pleased... just waiting for the Shunyaya Viper PCs to settle in - it's been a roller coaster ride.

It's been an expensive couple of weeks buying cables.

 

[johnjen]

  Not sure I understand the bypass USB altogether. USB is fine as for async data transport. What's problematic is having a USB receiver with its complicated electrical characteristics inside a sensitive DAC. A decent DDC seems to solve this problem. It would make more even more sense to have Ethernet>AES directly to minimize boxes and connections (thus AOIP, although its current implementations as in Dante seem too clunky and expensive). Something like the microRendu with AES. I know, Auralic Aries, but reports are not great on their quality/price and stability. I wish SOtM or Sonore would team up with Singxer or one of the other Chinese DDP vendors to create a minimal Roon Ready Ethernet>S/PDIF (AES, coax) solution.

It certainly is "fine as for async data transport", but we're talking streaming digital audio.
USB was never designed specifically for this use.
 
And based upon my and others attempts at 'cleaning up' USB for our use as a digital audio transport, it was bested, and heartily so by AOIP.
Enough so that those who have gone down this road have not looked back, with very few exceptions as far as I can tell.
 
The differences in SQ can truly be startling between USB (with any and all 'add on devices') and AOIP, and some of these 'add on devices' are now being used in our AOIP setups as well.
 
This isn't to say that AOIP is devoid of issues but in terms of SQ it can make USB pale in comparison, especially with any hi-end dac such as the Jggy.
And there are new devices in the works that should considerably reduce the cost of implementing AOIP.
And if my info is correct at least one of them will be a "Roon Ready Ethernet>S/PDIF (AES, coax) solution", and more.
 
Us early adopters of AOIP, using the Dante network with Atterotech and RedNet boxes are still pushing the edges of the envelope and widening the gap even further away from USB.
And the Atterotech Ud0 solution is ≈$700 and works very well when used with a Schiit multibit dac and their optimal operation using lowered sample rates.
 
It was interesting that at our last meet we had a complex Dante network setup between a pc and mac and a NµC feeding a Jggy and 2 other multibit dacs and a Theta dac using the Ud0 and 2 different Rednet boxes.
I mention this because it addresses the stability and robustness of the AOIP network.
 
And I agree that this approach is more complex and requires a steeper learning curve, and does have a few foibles involved such as Sample Rate Following, but once things are setup and operate correctly it's in the 'set and forget' mode of operation.
 
In fact now, I only use USB in my entire computer/audio system for computer peripherals, which is what it was designed for and works quite well at that.
 
JJ

 

[johnjen]

  I'm leaning towards the theory that getting AES to the Yggy is what matters most, not what you do upstream of a good AES source. With AES into the Yggy, the USB receiver within the DAC and its noise are out of the picture. There may be better AES DDCs than the SU-1, but I would go light on USB mumbo-jumbo upstream of the DDC (cables, decrapifiers) since a good DDC does what matters, put out a well-clocked, balanced S/PDIF signal on the AES/EBU cable.

What I experienced agrees with you, to a point.
 
The jump from usb (in any flavor) to AOIP was the biggest single improvement, followed by AES being better than SPDIF from the RedNet box.
 
But then adding at least one mutec box, took the overall SQ to yet another level again.
 
And let me be clear here we ARE talking about the last 5% or less, of what is possible in terms of SQ.
It's not that any means of delivering a suitable digital audio stream is bad or weak or deficient by any means.
But it is to say that there is more to be gained in terms of the overall acoustic presentation, if you choose to pursue it.
 
And all this is relative to what each of us values in the music we hear, which is unique to the individual to begin with.
 
JJ

 

[Mr Rick]

  What I experienced agrees with you, to a point.
 
The jump from usb (in any flavor) to AOIP was the biggest single improvement, followed by AES being better than SPDIF from the RedNet box.
 
But then adding at least one mutec box, took the overall SQ to yet another level again.
 
And let me be clear here we ARE talking about the last 5% or less, of what is possible in terms of SQ.
It's not that any means of delivering a suitable digital audio stream is bad or weak or deficient by any means.
But it is to say that there is more to be gained in terms of the overall acoustic presentation, if you choose to pursue it.
 
And all this is relative to what each of us values in the music we hear, which is unique to the individual to begin with.
 
JJ

 
And what is the cost for this improved SQ??

 

[Jozurr]

The SU-1 is a terrific unit, and sounds great with AES to the Yggy. I didn't think the SQ differences would be noticeable compared to direct USB on the Yggy, but they are. 

 

[mourip]

   
And what is the cost for this improved SQ??

 
A Rednet 3 is basically $1K plus the AES breakout cable.

 

[johnjen]

   
And what is the cost for this improved SQ??

As I mentioned using a multibit dac, the Atterotech Ud0 ($700) works rather well.
And I hear rumors of even less costly boxes looming on the horizon.
 
And of course the cost can continue to rise if you continue to pursue additional improvements such as the Mutec 3+ boxes.
And lately we have been replacing the SMPS's with LPS units (which actually is fairly cheap as these things go) in all of our digital audio signal gear, for yet again another step up.
 
Yes the number of boxes is multiplying like rabbits but then we are on the bleeding edge, with the next generation of these 'cables with boxes in the middle' incorporating these improvements thus reducing the number of additional boxes and potentially lowering the cost as well.
 
And I must say if the acoustic improvements weren't as impressive as they are, I doubt many of us would continue to explore this whole venue, especially with the enthusiasm that is evident.
 
JJ

 

[earnmyturns]

   
And if my info is correct at least one of them will be a "Roon Ready Ethernet>S/PDIF (AES, coax) solution", and more.

I very much hope your info is correct, that would clean up things a lot if it's lean and not ridiculously priced. 
 
I still don't understand what the Dante-based gear does that makes it better than other AES-output solutions according to so many observers. What confuses me is that the job of a Dante endpoint is not *that* different from the job of a Roon streamer with the same type of output. IP packets in, buffering, clock management, S/PDIF encoding, physical output (AES/coax/...). I know the protocols are different, but I find it hard to see how that would make much of a difference. Or is it that the consumer-oriented units have just not been as well designed electrically, whatever their price?

 

[johnjen]

Your questions have not been answered, at least as far as I can tell, so I can't tell you why the AOIP and the Dante network specifically is so different.
 
And it truly doesn't make much sense what with all of the added complexity and details involved, but the acoustic results are hard to ignore,
and nearly impossible to forget, let alone abandon once heard.
 
I figure one important aspect is the Dante network is a pro audio tool with it's requisite stability and flexibility regardless of circumstance.
And there are some who have compared Roon vs AOIP and preferred the Roon approach.
 
But the Roon path is neither cheap nor any less complex either.
And the Roon system is a closed system as well, just like the Dante network, only even more so.
 
Perhaps an open ethernet based audio streaming protocol will emerge in due course but I've not heard of anything that would support this, at all.
And really the ethernet network h/w and s/w costs aren't huge in and of themselves.
 
I figure as the popularity grows there will be more incentive to fully develop this entire digital audio transport methodology, and perhaps then we will learn the answers to your questions.
 
In the mean time us early adopters are continually being amazed at the results we are hearing, and loving it.
 
JJ

 

[EElegances]

removed text because the editor combined a response with a quote...

 

[earnmyturns]

Thanks, JJ, that's very interesting. If Dante had a Linux server solution like Roon does, I'd be sorely tempted. But I'm too comfortable with my Ubuntu NUC/NAS server setup to upend it all for a PC or Mac server. And I really like Roon's music library management. Patience for now, maybe another SU-1 for my other system....