[Jozurr]

Really enjoyed reading your post. Last year I introduced the ifi micro USB 3.0 into my system (Yggy) and found that it made a noteable improvement in overall performance. I use a laptop with 1tb SSD and oftened question if there would be even a greater performance improvement if I could figure how to use a coax or AES out of the laptop into Yggy. Is there some way to do this, or has anyone tried this? Is it worthwhile? Thx!

 

   
iUSB -> Singxer SU1 (AES Out) -> Yggy

 
I have the Singxer SU-1 coming in. Looking forward to see if I hear a difference. I currently use a normal USB out of my laptop to the Yggy. My USB out doesn't have any noise etc that I can hear.
 
However I'm still curious if the quality of the AES cables has any impact.

 

[earnmyturns]

  I think the problem with USB is that once it's in your chain you're stuck with its limitations regardless.
That's not to say it's bad.  If anything USB can be quite good if you're willing to invest into it both financially and with a bit of time in order to wring the best out of it.

There's a constant confusion in these discussions. The main problem is not USB audio per se, it's the electrical junk that general-purpose computers put on the USB cable to interfere with the DAC. Real solutions either give up USB into the DAC, hoping that S/PDIF or AES will do better, or give up general-purpose computers. I started with USB>S/PDIF converters, which did a decent job, but moving to a specialized digital source (microRendu) with a power supply designed to reduce electrical noise (UpTone LPS-1) was even better.
 
Listening to John Scofield's "Works for Me" on my 2-channel system (see my sig for details) it's hard for me to imagine much improvement that would not involve replacing the already pretty nice analog system downstream of my Yggy (fed by microRendu+LPS-1). Brad Mehldau on the left, the wonderful late Billy Higgins on drums on the right, the romantic (also sadly late) Kenny Garrett frost left, and Christian McBride driving with his bass from the back, and John Scofield jumping in front center are as close to me as I can hope for in my living room. 
 
In an ideal world, we'd have the good electrical properties of ethernet without any of its software complexity. There's always hope...

 

[astrostar59]

  There's a constant confusion in these discussions. The main problem is not USB audio per se, it's the electrical junk that general-purpose computers put on the USB cable to interfere with the DAC. 

Don't forget latency. And the fact USB feeds power down the line. I really tried to fix my USB with more investment in devices but gave up and went AOIP instead.

 

[hifimckinney]

  Don't forget latency. And the fact USB feeds power down the line. I really tried to fix my USB with more investment in devices but gave up and went AOIP instead.

I use multiple inputs on Yggy because there are some materials that aren't available via my Squeezebox but I am super happy with Squeezebox to AES on Yggy using Canare adapter.
 
I recommend using SB whenever possible.

 

[gad1]

  I use multiple inputs on Yggy because there are some materials that aren't available via my Squeezebox but I am super happy with Squeezebox to AES on Yggy using Canare adapter.
 
I recommend using SB whenever possible.

Hello,
 
Which canare adapter are you using?  Currently
I'm using a Squeezebox Touch edo usb->
regen-> Yggy.   
 
Thanks-

 

[hifimckinney]

 
Hello,
 
Which canare adapter are you using?  Currently
I'm using a Squeezebox Touch edo usb->
regen-> Yggy.   
 
Thanks-

 
Canare BCJ-XP-TRC 75 ohm

 

[Jamiee]

  There's a constant confusion in these discussions. The main problem is not USB audio per se, it's the electrical junk that general-purpose computers put on the USB cable to interfere with the DAC. Real solutions either give up USB into the DAC, hoping that S/PDIF or AES will do better, or give up general-purpose computers. I started with USB>S/PDIF converters, which did a decent job, but moving to a specialized digital source (microRendu) with a power supply designed to reduce electrical noise (UpTone LPS-1) was even better.
 
Listening to John Scofield's "Works for Me" on my 2-channel system (see my sig for details) it's hard for me to imagine much improvement that would not involve replacing the already pretty nice analog system downstream of my Yggy (fed by microRendu+LPS-1). Brad Mehldau on the left, the wonderful late Billy Higgins on drums on the right, the romantic (also sadly late) Kenny Garrett frost left, and Christian McBride driving with his bass from the back, and John Scofield jumping in front center are as close to me as I can hope for in my living room. 
 
In an ideal world, we'd have the good electrical properties of ethernet without any of its software complexity. There's always hope...

 
Sadly the electrical junk is part & parcel with USB.  
It's something that has to be dealt with and lets face it, it costs considerably more to get really good results from USB than it does to go COAX or other digital method... (I won't include AOIP here because its a different beast all together and something I haven't experienced yet).
 
For what it's worth my audio PC is decidedly general purpose.  Much of my listening happens at my desk while I'm working, browsing, gaming, or just kicking back listening to tunes.
That said, I've done as much as I reasonably can to keep things fairly clean on the USB electrical front.
 
1. High end consumer / prosumer grade components:  Asus Rampage V Edition 10 motherboard, 64GB Special Edition Corsair memory, Corsair AX Series 1200W PSU, Intel i7 10-Core CPU, etc....
2. EMI damping:  Stillpoints ERS paper placed behind the motherboard.
3. Audio grade SATA cables with SSD drives for storage (OS is on an NVMe drive).
4. JCAT USB FEMTO card - powered externally via JCAT Battery PSU
5. Twin lead USB Cable (power and data separated at PC end)
6. JCAT USB Isolator
7. Mutec MC3+ USB
8. Audio software: JPlay, Fidelizer, etc....
9. System power filtered through PS Audio Powerplant and enterprise class UPS.
 
I'm not by any means saying USB is bad, it's just that in my experience you have to jump through more hoops and spend more dough to get reasonable results.
 
My little "optical" experiment over the weekend didn't end up where I expected.  I thought for sure USB was going reign king.... It just so happens it didn't turn out that way.  Not for me anyway...

 

[earnmyturns]

  Don't forget latency. And the fact USB feeds power down the line. I really tried to fix my USB with more investment in devices but gave up and went AOIP instead.

Why is latency relevant? A fixed delta-t does not affect signal reconstruction. As for USB power, sure, power from SMPS computer supplies is awful, and even if power wasn't too much of an issue, leakage currents between the USB conductors (not just power) and ground could be. But that's what microRendu+LPS-1 are designed to address. AOIP has its own configuration complications and cost, and doesn't work anyway for those of us who run Linux servers instead of PCs. My setup (Linux server+Roon Core>RAAT over ethernet>microRendu+LPS-1>USB>Yggy) is doing very nicely, although I'd try the new magic hinted at by @Baldr if and when it shows up, just in case.

 

[earnmyturns]

  I'm not by any means saying USB is bad, it's just that in my experience you have to jump through more hoops and spend more dough to get reasonable results.

It really depends on how you set up things. I never thought of using a PC (heck, I don't have one) or a Mac (I have several) as a digital audio source, too many compromises. My general-purpose computers are for general-purpose things, from Web browsing to coding. My digital music world is totally separate by design. Started several years ago with a NAS (Synology) and UPnP into a Naim streamer (UnitiQute), eventually evolved into the current network: NAS, Intel NUC-based Linux server, and two microRendu streamers with ultracap LPS-1 power supplies as sources to two Schiit DACs, Bimby for office, Yggy for 2-channel living room system, all connected by Cat 6 and pro-grade router and switches. But even low-cost streamers (CuBox-i with open source Volumio distro) did fairly well, because they do just one thing, pulling packets off the wire and pushing their USB versions to the DAC, rather than doing anything and everything you are busy with while listening.

 

[Jamiee]

I fully agree.... PC's (incl. Mac's)  are noisy environments - in more ways than one.
This is what has given rise to all the audiophile software in recent years  ( which I might add has served me quite well in my own pursuit of USB based audio nirvana ). 
 
The game changer though was the introduction of the Mutec.  Suddenly it became apparent (sonically) that it was better to just let Windows do it's own thing naturally and let the Mutec do the heavy lifting it needed to do.
 
The results were and are fantastic!   I could have easily lived with the setup as it was at that point.
 
But, you know... I'm never one to leave things alone for too long.  I'm convinced it's a curse... 

 
 

 

[hifimckinney]

I was curious if you guys tried connecting iPhone using wire. I could hear clear difference compared to when a laptop was connected.

 

[Gamergtx260]

  I fully agree.... PC's (incl. Mac's)  are noisy environments - in more ways than one.
This is what has given rise to all the audiophile software in recent years  ( which I might add has served me quite well in my own pursuit of USB based audio nirvana ). 
 
The game changer though was the introduction of the Mutec.  Suddenly it became apparent (sonically) that it was better to just let Windows do it's own thing naturally and let the Mutec do the heavy lifting it needed to do.
 
The results were and are fantastic!   I could have easily lived with the setup as it was at that point.
 
But, you know... I'm never one to leave things alone for too long.  I'm convinced it's a curse... 

 
 

Could you please elaborate your experience more on the Mutec? And also your setup. (amp, dac, headphones, cables, etc... )
I'm interested in it, but there was a test by some japanese channel on youtube, with and without the mutec in the line. I could not hear any difference. Thanks!

 

[Jamiee]

  Could you please elaborate your experience more on the Mutec? And also your setup. (amp, dac, headphones, cables, etc... )
I'm interested in it, but there was a test by some japanese channel on youtube, with and without the mutec in the line. I could not hear any difference. Thanks!

I'm at work right now so can't really get into the nitty & gritty of it. Besides this probably isn't the right forum to be getting into too much detail on the benefits of the Mutec (as I hear them), beyond a few bullet points...  We should really be talking more Yggy!
 
I will PM you later 

 
 
Suffice to say though, I'm not surprised you didn't hear a difference over YouTube. 
I don't think anyone could honestly hear the difference between the various converters or using one vs. not using one over YouTube, unless said converter was doing some significant (audible) changes to the frequency curve.  Different speakers - sure, anyone can hear that on YouTube!...  USB converters, not so much...

 

[Gamergtx260]

 
I'm at work right now so can't really get into the nitty & gritty of it. Besides this probably isn't the right forum to be getting into too much detail on the benefits of the Mutec (as I hear them), beyond a few bullet points...  We should really be talking more Yggy!
 
I will PM you later 

 
 
Suffice to say though, I'm not surprised you didn't hear a difference over YouTube. 
I don't think anyone could honestly hear the difference between the various converters or using one vs. not using one over YouTube, unless said converter was doing some significant (audible) changes to the frequency curve.  Different speakers - sure, anyone can hear that on YouTube!...  USB converters, not so much...

Sure thanks.
 
Let me rephrase that "how does the mutec sound when hooked to the yggy?" and that surely can be discussed here

 

[Jamiee]

  Sure thanks.
 
Let me rephrase that "how does the mutec sound when hooked to the yggy?" and that surely can be discussed here

 
Ha, yes.. OK, now that you've put it that way...
 
First of all, let me preface by saying that IMO the ideal digital converter, de-crapifier, re-clocker, what have you... should not sound like anything.  It should do it's job then get out of the way of the source gear upstream - much in the way that a high quality DAC should as well.
 
Of course we don't live in an ideal world, and our audio electronics, cables etc. all have at least some level of sonic colouration to them.
This is neither good or bad; sure it's not the ideal, but it is what it is. 
 
The Mutec MC3+ USB is a digital converter, de-crapifier, and re-clocker all rolled into one nice little package.
Does it meet my ideal?  Well no... it has it's own character like anything else, but it does come as close or closer than any similar piece of equipment I've heard. 
Where I think the Mutec excels - especially so for me -  is in the details.  Literally...  I am very sensitive to sibilance in vocals and any sort of "fuzziness" around the edge(s) of micro/macro details in a recording - in other words electrical and digital noise. 
 
I mean, were talking the last 1% or 2% level stuff here...   The stuff most people generally don't hear or don't particularly care about.
For me though it has always stood out as an ugly little wart on the side of USB audio playback, something I've been trying to defeat for years.
 
The Mutec is the first solution that I've heard that has actually dealt with the USB noise issue so well that it's no longer a problem for my tender ears.
 
So how well does it pair with the Yggdrasil?  Well IMO, it's breathed new life into it... If anything it has shown me just how good Yggy really is and how reliant it is on what's upstream "getting it right"  (cue: Mike Holmes).
 
I really like that about the Yggdrasil, it gets out of the way of the signal path in only the way the best DAC's can, and it shows you what's going on with your upstream gear.  The cleaner the signal you send it, the better it will sound. It's very rewarding that way - but also very costly to ones bank account

.
 
 
So yeah, the Mutec is a cracking piece of kit as far as I'm concerned. 
I found it took a good 2-3 weeks (powered on 24/7) to fully settle in, so if you get one, do give it some time before fully judging it on its merits.
 
 
 
 
 
{EDIT}
 
Well I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong....  and yeah, I'm wrong....
I said earlier that it was not likely that a person could hear the difference between recorded converters and played back through YouTube.
Well I just found the Japanese videos you mentioned and had a listen...  Yes there is a difference between the Mutec being in the audio chain vs. not. 
I won't say that it's night and day between the two, but with the Mutec in place I found the resulting sound field to be more expansive and generally more relaxed.  Subtle, but it's definitely there!
 
- Of course this is assuming the author kept all things equal throughout the testing/recording session.