sixergixer
Headphoneus Supremus
Not disregarding because your point cannot be overstated.
Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
- Thread starter Jason Stoddard
- Start date
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- schiit audio schiit-audio
hammersrocco
Head-Fier
To me, updating the Bifrost is the next logical step, but thinking that Schiit won't say anything until ready to release, like with the Mimir.
Would like to remind you, I was right about the Mimir!
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earnmyturns
Headphoneus Supremus
Looks like a feature to me
tincanear
Headphoneus Supremus
Presumably, next-gen Bifrost will allow re-use of the expensive slide-in analog (both OG & /64 variants) and OG isolated Unison USB cards.
Recently, sometime after the FB announcement (can’t find the exact post(s) on this thread) Jason had talked about some sort of BF2 FB upgrade trade-in program as the BF2 motherboard & chassis was designed before FB was a thing (no on-board header nor rear panel cutout).
Feature set of revised BFn should at least (from marketing/sales/user perspectives) include those found on the lower-cost Mimir (FB port, PEQ, digital volume & bal, adjustable loudness) all of which will need to be integrated into the existing ADI SHARC code and possibly necessitating a DSP speed increase & internal psu upgrades (plus future Multiform Analog module compatibility?).
With USB becoming more popular, will next-gen BFn get dual USB inputs too, in the form of a single USB 384 isolated built-in to the motherboard plus (optional?) 2nd Unison OG card?
Whatever the final configuration is, give the design & manufacturing teams time to get this done right…
CONGRATS to the Schiit teams (both design and manufacturing) on the release of feature-packed MESH DAC at an attractive & accessible price point!
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Timster
Headphoneus Supremus
Best place to start would be Jason's chapter on Forkbeard:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...able-start-up.701900/page-11342#post-18406336
JamminVMI
Headphoneus Supremus
I’m with you on this one. Been using Forkbeard with Wotan soon after its release, and Kara before that. No issues. The app itself is about as intuitive as an app gets. I just set up a second ‘stack’ for my outdoor system with a Saga 2, and Mimir will join it as soon as Fedex gets it here.
2025, Chapter 5
The End of the DAC As We Know It
This is going to sound like a joke.
It’s also gonna start a lot of jawing amongst the crowd who think that there’s nothing to DACs other than stuffing the “latest and greatest” off-the-shelf chip in a box.
So, to jump right in:
Mimir is here. The first Mesh™ DAC. Also a full Forkbeard™ digital preamp. Also with Unison 384™. Also with Linear Override™.
Oh and it starts at $299.
“Wait a sec,” half of you are asking. “What the heck is a ‘Mesh DAC?’”
“And hold just a motherflippin minute,” half of you are crying. “Digital preamp? What the heck do you even mean by that?”
Har. Har har.
Boom.
Mesh™: ComboBurrito’s New Recipe
Let’s talk about this whole “Mesh DAC” thing first. Because, even without considering Forkbeard, Mimir’s a very big deal.
Those of you who know us, know that we have our own digital filter, based on our own math, implemented in costly DSPs, for use with multi-bit D/A converters. This unique digital filter is what Mike Moffat has referred to as his “megacomboburrito” filter in the past.
Silly name, yes, but it does accurately describe what we have: the only time- and frequency-domain optimized, closed-form digital filter. Unlike other approaches that are content to resample the recording, without concern for retaining the accuracy of the original, we concentrate on preserving the original samples as far as possible.
Aside: hence our new ads: DACs for the recording, not the re-sample.Aside to the aside: yeah I know some of you guys use upsamplers, that’s fine, there is no One True Path to audio nirvana, but we do believe in retaining as much of the original is important, and should not be lost in a quest for higher and higher rate transformations that may not have any relationship to the original.Aside to the aside to the aside: ya want change? We gave you a parametric EQ here. Also in Gungnir 2 soon. Have fun. That reaaaaaaaallllly changes stuff. No question. No problem. Enjoy.
Anyway, the megacomboburrito filter had only one problem: it was expensive. It used costly D/A converters, pricey DSPs, required complex power supplies, and in general wasn’t budget-friendly. We eventually got Modi Multibit down to $249 to start, $299 in Gen 2 form, and, if we kept it going, it’d need another bump to $349 to cover increased production costs. And $349 for a relatively limited, single-ended-only product wasn’t really something I wanted to pursue.
So I started asking the digital crew, “Can we combine our megacomboburrito filter with a standard delta-sigma modulator?”
The idea was, of course, to figure out a way of retaining our filter’s inherent goodness, while making a more affordable product.
“But the DSP,” Dave said, as soon as I proposed it. The DSP was where we’d gotten the horsepower to run the filter in the past.
“Can we do a version of the filter in the Unison USB chip?” I asked. We use a very powerful 32 bit Microchip microprocessor for our own USB interface. It seemed like we should have enough capability and precision there.
Dave looked skeptical. “I/O is a problem. But if we’re going to be using a standard audio DAC, maybe.”
I crossed my arms. Because I knew the answer. Theta Digital, Mike’s first foray into DACs, had combined an early version of our digital filter with a delta-sigma DAC…in the 1990s.
Dave looked uncomfortable. I knew he didn’t like the idea all that much, because it blurred the lines between True Multibit/Multiform and delta-sigma. And also because it was more complex than I expected.
“We have Unison USB,” I prodded. “If it can do more than USB, that’s a huge win.”
Some uncomfortable glances were exchanged between Dave and Ivana. I was also pushing for more Unison USB capability, specifically Unison 384, and this was more work on top of that.
I let the silence stretch out.
“It’s worth looking into,” Mike said, finally.
And that was how we started looking at Mesh.
Now, “looking at,” isn’t “doing,” so it took a few more reminders to get Dave and Ivana to understand I was serious.
But when we started really working on it, we found:
The result?
- It was feasible to do a version of our digital filter on the Unison USB microprocessor. This completely eliminated the need for a DSP, which saved a lot of cost.
- Nothing is free, so we took a power hit. The microprocessor had to run faster. However, by running it faster, we had it operating comfortably below its processing limit. And, with the addition of a Linear Override power supply, we were able to retain Mimir’s capability to run on USB power.
- Having great familiarity with a standard delta-sigma modulator (in this case, an ES9028) paid off in implementation. Many have already commented on Modi and Modius outperforming “newer” ESS chips, thanks to parts whisperers like Dave. The deep familiarity we had with the “older” ESS chips allowed us to make Mesh, well, “mesh” much better than we’d hoped.
The Mesh DAC sound shocked all of us. Even Mike Moffat declared that is was far, far better than he’d expected. It’s nothing like a typical ESS implementation. It retains a whole lot of what makes the “megacomboburrito” DACs special.
In retrospect, maybe we shouldn’t be so surprised. The Stereophile review of the Theta DS Pro Prime, Mike and Dave’s first product to meld a DSP-based digital filter and a standard “bitstream” DAC, commented that it sounded much more like the other Theta products than a delta-sigma device.
Aside: Mike and Dave did the DS Pro Prime for the same reason we did Mimir—to make their products more affordable. And I think it’s important to note that the DS Pro Prime was considered a super, super high value at $1250 when it debuted in 1991. In constant dollars, that’s $2906 today. Aside to the aside: Go back and read that again. Two thousand nine hundred six dollars. Mimir is only about 1/10 the cost. For a much much much more capable DAC. Aside to the aside to the aside: This is what you call “progress.”
This is a big deal.
Mesh makes implementing our filter much simpler and more affordable. And this affordability allowed us to do a whole lot more than we expected with Mimir.
Specifically:
So yeah, Mimir is a fundamental transformation in our DAC capability, bringing a completely unique filter with proprietary math to a platform that can extend down to our least expensive products—oh yeah, and is based on our own unique Unison USB architecture.
- We included Unison 384. AKA the new high-rate Unison USB. Now you’re covered all the way up to DXD rates. As in, pretty much all music on the planet. And, with Mesh, we’re keeping the recording as original as possible.
- We added Linear Override. Linear Override debuted in Gunnr, as a way for us to give you easy transportability and high power output. Plug in the included AC wall-wart, and Linear Override, well, overrides the internal switching supplies with a linear power supply, increasing rail voltages from +/-5V to +/-12V and increasing output from 3V RMS on the balanced outputs to 4V RMS.
- We included independent balanced and single-ended outputs, as well as a suite of inputs, including transformer-isolated AES and coaxial.
Oh yeah, and it is updatable over the air, like Gungnir 2.
Aaaaaaand….remember that we still had processing power left in the Unison microprocessor?
Yeah. I wasn’t about to let that go to waste.
Full Forkbeard Ahead
I’ve heard some comments from people who wonder why we haven’t been pushing the Forkbeard platform especially hard, given the “groundbreaking” pronouncements I used when we launched.
Like most of the things we do, there’s a good reason we’ve been relatively quiet.
Here it is: until now, you haven’t seen what Forkbeard can be.
Because, with Forkbeard, and that unused processing power of the Unison microprocessor, we can transform a very nice DAC into a complete digital preamp, including remote control, digital volume, (with balance!) and a parametric EQ.
For $50.
Oh yeah and in June, we’ll be adding the same features to Gungnir 2, including a more capable 5-band parametric EQ (thanks to the additional processing power of its DSP).
Free.
Go back and read that again:
Gungnir 2 will soon be a full digital preamp and EQ.
As a FREE UPGRADE.
Do we have your attention now?
“Wait a sec, are you saying I can add a Forkbeard module to Mimir, then plug it direct into an amp, and have a complete system, with volume control and EQ…without an external preamp or EQ?”
In short, yes.
“Well, that’s crazy,” someone is saying. “You could easily charge for that upgrade. You’re not maximizing your customer lifetime value. You’re not serving your shareholders to the fullest extent!”
Yeah, we’re also not assholes.
And, hey, I’m the majority shareholder. And I don’t give a ****.
There are way too many companies hellbent on squeezing every cent out of everyone for everything. We don’t need to be one of them. So, again, with feeling: every update to Forkbeard will be free. Period. Even one as seismic as this.
“Well that’s still 100%bonkersnuts,” someone else says. “You guys make preamps and EQs. Aren’t you just cutting yourselves off at the knees?”
Also in short, no. Analog preamps and EQs still have their place. We’ll get into that a bit more later.
But also, we’ve never been afraid to eat our own. We’re never worried when we come up with a less expensive product that’s better than a previous flagship. We laugh when a reviewer says, “no, this is too good, seriously.”
We always do the best we can.
Period.
Even if it’s a game-changer.
I forget when we came up with the idea to add digital volume and EQ to Mimir. Maybe Martin remembers. I don’t know if it was based on the fact that we had extra processing power, or if it just seemed like a good idea in theory, or if it started with Mimir at all.
I know it was formalized last year, when I delivered a “wish list” for Mimir that I expected to break Dave and Ivana. It included:
The amazing thing was…they went beyond that.
- Mesh DAC
- Linear Override
- Full remote control
- DAC reporting (sample rate, etc)
- Volume
- EQ (of some kind)
I didn’t expect parametric EQ. I mean, yeah, 3 bands doesn’t seem like a ton, but for a parametric EQ, it should be plenty to tune any system.
Aside: yes, you can get too crazy with EQ. If you need 30 parametric bands to correct your room, maybe work on your room. Or smoke a doobie. Because you can get wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too nervous about this stuff.Aside to the aside: the best EQ I personally ever used, prior to Schiit, was a 3-band non-parametric analog EQ with well-chosen bands. This was in the car stereo days, which have a lot more problems than a typical home system.Aside to the aside to the aside: Dave really was running out of processing power in the end, and still delivered far more than I expected. If he figures out how to get a 40-band X-Tra-Kray-Zee edition EQ stuffed in there, you’ll be able to do OTA updates to get it. Or maybe best not to. I’d prefer not to see you in the asylum.
They also gave me phase inversion and Mesh filter/NOS filter switching on the Forkbeard interface.
“NOS?” I asked Dave. “How does that work?”
“It just repeats the sample, no filtering.”
“Straight to a delta-sigma modulator?”
Dave nodded.
Hmm. That was weird. But also OK. Because it gives you another option. Go ahead and resample. Run that straight to the ESS delta-sigma modulator. And see what you think. Or hear what you think. You get it.
“Volume?” someone asks. “Digital volume?”
Yes. So let’s have that discussion.
Let’s start by getting this out of the way: no volume control method is perfect.
Zip. Zero. Nada.
They all have pluses and minuses.
If you are stumping for one method over another like some pamphlet-slinging zealot, you’ve probably ingested too much marketing. Time to take some deep breaths, do a detox, and come back when you’re feeling more grounded.
What kind of pluses and minuses we talking about? Let’s look at three examples:
“Losing resolution? That doesn't sound good,” some people are saying. “Why would you even give us this option?”
- Analog potentiometer.This is what we use on Magni, Jotunheim, and many other products. It’s a pair (or a quad) of continuously variable resistors that are used to divide the signal down. Sounds simple? It is. Unfortunately, it also has some significant drawbacks.
- Pluses: easy to use, can be relatively inexpensive
- Minuses: channel balance isn’t perfect at low volume levels, variable impedance means variable noise floor that maxes near mid volume
- Analog relay stepped attenuator.This is what we use on preamps like Saga, Kara, and Freya. This is our preferred way to do volume, but it’s not without its drawbacks.
- Pluses: basically perfect channel matching, fine control with linear steps
- Minuses: complex, requires relays, many different resistors, and microprocessor controls; impedance still varies with position
- Digital attenuation.This is what we’re giving you with Mimir and (soon) Gungnir 2. You also have the option to completely defeat it. Because, while the idea of a “pristine” digital volume control sounds good at first, it also has its pluses and minuses:
- Pluses: can be very inexpensive to implement if you have the processing power, output impedance not variable
- Minuses: digital volume means math. Math means altering the samples. Below a certain level, you will lose bits—or, in other words, lose resolution.
“Ah come on, I hear there are “perfect” digital volume controls out there,” say others. “What, does yours suck?”
“What about autoformer and LDR volume controls,” someone else asks. “I hear those are fantastic!”
Yeah, I expected this. So let’s break it down.
“Well, what about digital EQ,” someone says. “You’re using math there as well. You’re changing things!”
- Why did we include digital volume? Simple: because it’s a really good option for many systems, and it’s great to have the flexibility. For all the jawing about the downsides to digital volume, the reality is that a well-tuned one (like we have on Mimir) is actually very nice, and quite transparent down to very low levels. Plus, you can defeat it if you don’t want to use it.
- There are NO “perfect” digital volume controls. If you believe there is a magic digital volume, you have been consuming too much marketing. The reality is there are very bad digital volume controls out there. Hell, Mimir’s wasn’t fantastic before we tuned it. What we ended up with was a really nice volume control, based on our experience of over 40 years in groundbreaking digital audio. And, if we come up with something better, Mimir has over-the-air updates.
- What about autoformers and LDRs? Sorry, I don’t have enough experience with each to comment in detail, other than noting that autoformers are probably going to be expensive, and LDRs are not champs on the distortion front. If you have one of those and love it, cool, but we won’t be competing on that dance floor.
Yes, and that’s the point: if you choose to change things, we give you the capability to change things.
We’ve also carefully tuned the EQ, based on our own algorithms, to get it to be as sonically innocuous as possible. We’ve also carefully chosen the boost and cut ranges to maximize the dynamic range and minimize impact to the overall output level.
Aside: “lossless” digital EQ? Sure. Yeah. Whatevs. You’ve lost every single original sample as soon as you start EQing, period, full stop. As long as you’re OK with that, it’s all good.
But I think, in terms of both digital volume and digital EQ, the point is that these are both optional.
Don’t want volume and EQ? Don’t use them. They won’t affect a single sample.
Don’t want the chance of ever using volume or EQ? Don’t bother with Forkbeard at all. Mimir will just be a great DAC, and nothing else.
But if you want to go preamp-less to simplify or save, or if you want to make some sonic tweaks to address your room or your headphones, you have the capability.
Oh yeah, and you get even more. I didn’t get to all of it.
Like Loudness.
If I could go back in time and take one control from all the 1980’s stereos, it would be loudness. Loudness, or Fletcher-Munson equalization, is a way to compensate for how your ear perceives low volumes.
If you’ve ever noticed how a recording sounds thin and lifeless at low volume, you’ve experienced the Fletcher-Munson curve. You’re not imagining things. Your ears are actually less sensitive to bass and treble at low levels.
On many stereos in the 1980s, there was a button, labeled LOUDNESS (which was always pressed in), which tweaked the output of the system to have more bass and treble at low volumes, and gradually become more flat as volume increased.
These buttons were always pressed in because it sounded good. Especially when listening at low, background levels. It was a very useful control. And simple. No tweaking 31 EQ bands. No knobs. Just a button. No nervosa, just better sound at lower levels.
Which is why I stumped for including it on Mimir. Try it and see whay you think.
Aaaaaaanndd…Balance.
Yes. Balance.
Because, even though you should fix your room first, you may not be able to fix your hearing. Or, if you love your significant other enough, you may not be able to fix your room, entirely.
And also because balance is one of the things that makes the most sense to do in the digital domain. Balance should be a relatively minor adjustment. You won’t need more than 3-6dB in most cases.
Aaaaaaannnnddd…phase invert.
Absolute phase inversion is another thing that’s perfect to do in the digital domain, because it’s one of the most simple and innocuous transforms out there. With Mimir and Forkbeard, you also get one-touch control of absolute phase inversion.
Try it…it sounds very different. It’s very easy to hear if you have a recording that’s out of phase.
Aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnndddd…over the air updates.
Although we think Mimir is perfect right now, and will be perfect forever, who knows? Maybe we will find a way to give you more EQ bands, or better algorithms. Or, in the case of a Forkbearded system, we may add features like control macros. While macros and stuff like that are simply a part of the Forkbeard app, we can also improve the internal code of Mimir over time, without SD Cards, EEPROMs, or, even worse, sending the whole thing in to us.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnddd…Visual Volume!
Add a Forkbeard-enabled amp from the $299 Gjallarhorn F to the $1999 Wotan, and you have a full Visual Volume system with only 2 components. For those of you wearing the green visors, that means $299+299+100, or $698, gets you a helluva integrated DAC. preamp, EQ, and amp!
Go back and read that again:
For $698! Made in USA!
- 4-input DAC with custom USB input, AES input, and digital filter
- 3-band parametric EQ
- Volume and balance
- Forkbeard-enabled Continuity S™ speaker amp
Beginning to understand the full scope of Forkbeard now?
Yeah. This is a big big biiiig biiiiiiiiig deal.
About Preamps
Let’s get back to everyone who’s worried we’ve just wrecked our preamp market. Remember I said there were good reasons to stick with an analog preamp? Yep!
The bottom line is that most super-serious audiophiles will be best-served by an analog preamp using the best volume control on the planet, the relay ladder attenuator. As in, Saga 2, Kara F, or Freya+ F. These devices, ranging from $279 to a bit over a grand with all the trimmings, enable:
Here’s the thing: Mimir is a really good digital preamp. But it is digital. There will be resolution loss at some point. It may be nothing you ever hear. But it’s there.
- The best, finest, lossless control of volume
- Output mode selection, including the option for passive control, or adding gain
- The ability to seamlessly integrate analog sources, such as turntables, while keeping them entirely in the analog domain
- Control via an IR remote
- Control via physical controls on the front panel
Mimir’s preamp capability is also entirely via Forkbeard. There are no physical controls. As long as you’re content using your phone to run everything, you’re fine. If not, you’ll want something with knobs and buttons.
So can you get by without a preamp? It’s entirely up to you.
And now you have the choice to go analog preamp-less with Mimir.
Aside: oh yeah, and with Gungnir 2 in June!
The EnMeshed, Singular™, Great Bygg Future
So here’s where we get to the usual questions about whether or not everything will end up using Mesh, and what about our other DACs, especially Yggy, which hasn’t even gotten Forkbeard yet.
Well, with respect to Mesh, of course we’ll be looking at bringing that down the line to other Unison USB products. The whole point of Mesh is bringing a big part of our unique technology—the megacomboburrito filter—to much more affordable products. However, it’s not just a firmware change, it’s a redesign. So, we’ll see.
On the other hand, bringing Mesh up the line maybe doesn’t make a lot of sense. We already have our multibit DACs that use precision, bit-perfect D/A converters to preserve the original samples.
You will see casualties: both Modius E and Modi Multibit 2 ride into the sunset, replaced by Mimir. We’ll sell them while we still have stock, but they’ve really been eclipsed by this new DAC.
And, finally, with respect to Yggdrasil, we’re taking the unprecedented step of pre-announcing details of the Yggdrasil Singular, AKA Byggy, and enabling current Yggdrasil owners to sign up to be first in line for upgrades this summer. There’s even a free upgrade option for everyone who bought an Yggdrasil from us. The reservation page will be up tomorrow.
We hope you enjoy Mimir!
Kindly ask SCHIIT to specify when we will have this for (in) Europe. Now it is not available in schiit.eu!!! Shall I order from schiit.com?
Schiit products are high-quality and great value for price but still difficult to find in Europe - low availability, short product list,... delayed launches
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sickmonkey
New Head-Fier
This is one of my go to CDs. Fascination street really shines along with The Walk.Agriculture begets the production of alcohol and the production of alcohol requires agriculture. Makes sense to me!
Tonight's CD spin through the Vibros (with alcohol, of course) is spurred on by The Cure's recent announcement of a remix version of Songs Of A Lost World. It's The Cure's 1990 remix album called Mixed Up. Some seriously creative remixes on this one.
Thanks for the heads up. I just ordered Lost World remix. June 13 release.
Take Mixed Up and Staring at the Sea in comparison, What? IMHO both are just awesome, but incredibly different.
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I bought my original Yggy from Electromod in the UK and also had it upgraded to A2 by them.
The service from Mark Dolbear was excellent.
However, frustration with getting Schiit gear in the UK meant that I ended up making all subsequent purchases direct from Schiit in the States.
The main concern I had, was that unlike a UK (or EU) purchase, if for any reason I wanted to return an item, I don’t have the same consumer protection, plus there is all the extra cost and hassle associated with shipping and taxes…
With relatively low cost items such as Unison USB board for Yggy, Lokius and Magni, I wasn’t really concerned.
All purchases arrived quickly and worked perfectly.
The first ‘serious’ item I bought direct from Schiit was a Freya S as Jason had said it would be discontinued and I really wanted one!
That too, arrived quickly and I was delighted with it.
I considered it to be a genuine audiophile bargain.
It seems the Kara has taken things to an even higher level, such is the ingenuity of Jason.
My biggest ‘punt’ was buying a Folkvangr direct from the States.
The initial transaction didn’t go smoothly, but that was down to Barclaycard screwing things up with ‘suspected fraud’!
Schiit’s service was outstanding.
I had never owned any tube gear, so the FV was a real shot in the dark.
Fortunately, my faith in Jason and Schiit generally, was not misplaced.
I love the Folkvangr!
I think I have been lucky that it seems to have great synergy with the Sennheiser HD800S phones which I already owned.
I am certainly a big fan of Schiit Audio and following my ‘advice’ a friend here in the UK now has LOADS of Schiit!
He loves it all.
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Great! Yesterday mine was shipped - expected arrival April 30.
cspirou
100+ Head-Fier
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Mimir looks cool and seems like a significant upgrade to the Modius I have
One question, can you control the volume of multiple Mimir’s at the same time? I was thinking about an active 2-way digital xover setup, which typically requires volume with zero imbalance. A couple relay based preamps would work, but a DAC level control would be a nice budget option
One question, can you control the volume of multiple Mimir’s at the same time? I was thinking about an active 2-way digital xover setup, which typically requires volume with zero imbalance. A couple relay based preamps would work, but a DAC level control would be a nice budget option
bagwell359
Headphoneus Supremus
Also carrying around kegs gets old real fast.
You can add two or more Mimirs to a stack in the app, but you will have to change their volumes one at a time, there's no built-in way to keep them in sync automatically.
As long as you don't mind that you'll have to do it manually, keeping their respective volume settings the same shouldn't be too difficult, since the app will show you the dB value of attenuation when you change the volume, so you wouldn't have to do it by eye based on the volume bar position alone.
Keep in mind, though, that we don't match components from one device to another, so there could be minimal variations in output levels from one Mimir to the next. The two Mimirs might be perfectly balanced, or they might not be.
Update:
No, that won't work. See the next two posts below.
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gxleetw
New Head-Fier
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Wouldn’t this require clock sync between DACs, not just volume? Not sure how could this be implemented with two independent DACs instead of a multi-channel one.
Good point. The channels will almost certainly end up somewhat out of phase. Completely forgot about that…
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