Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Nov 2, 2023 at 1:12 PM Post #129,796 of 170,002
One thing I notice though is that as you push more zeros after 0.0xxx%, the more "even" or "balanced" the tonal balance becomes and the sound gives off less harmonic richness that make other DACs engaging. However, in return, you get what the recording is providing you with a clean canvas. Yggy MIB will surely give off less harmonic richness than other Yggy flavors due to being the contender for SINAD king for R2R, but you still get tons of engagement due to its 4x oversampling filter, giving off a NOS like presentation to the sound (texture retrieval aka plankton, vocals timbre, smoothness, intimate 3D presentation, etc.)
 
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Nov 2, 2023 at 1:18 PM Post #129,797 of 170,002
This is interesting. To me it is "unfortunately, that is wrong (to my ears)". I'm fortunate that many agree with me and some do produce DACs that further the art, but I think I'd be grateful if digital audio actually had been easy to perfect and all we had to worry about was amplifiers and transducers.

Not to mention the state of the art would be much much better by this point if that was the case. Not only would digital not have taken as much of our resources and focus, but it would also have greatly helped analyzers and measurements - maybe in small ways in terms of performance but greatly in terms of proliferation and affordability. This could've accelerated transducer and amplifier development quite a lot.
I have zero issues if someone feels as though a $10 dongle sounds the same to them as a $2K TOTL DAC. I would ask that person why post such comment on a thread dedicated to components that perform to highly competitive standards at a reasonable price? Does that person really think they are "saving us" from wasting money?
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 1:21 PM Post #129,798 of 170,002
I have zero issues if someone feels as though a $10 dongle sounds the same to them as a $2K TOTL DAC. I would ask that person why post such comment on a thread dedicated to components that perform to highly competitive standards at a reasonable price? Does that person really think they are "saving us" from wasting money?
A hit & run comment, designed to draw reactions. It seems to have worked.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 1:24 PM Post #129,799 of 170,002
A hit & run comment, designed to draw reactions. It seems to have worked.
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Nov 2, 2023 at 1:37 PM Post #129,800 of 170,002
Some DACs sound very similar. Others can have significant differences. Much of this can be attributed to the analog output stage and a large device with more room for better components will likely sound a good deal better than one that can fit into a small cable.
When I started out listening to DACs, I wrongly assumed they all sounded the same. Turns out when I was using powered monitors, I didn’t realize the monitors also had a built-in burr brown DAC🤦‍♂️. So when I plugged Bifrost 2/64 and the delta sigma ESS9028 DAC from my Asgard 3 directly into the monitors, it’s no wonder I couldn’t tell a difference. Only when I switched to passive speakers with an amp did I realize the error of my ways. 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ Bifrost 2/64 blew my mind after that.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 1:46 PM Post #129,801 of 170,002
I have zero issues if someone feels as though a $10 dongle sounds the same to them as a $2K TOTL DAC. I would ask that person why post such comment on a thread dedicated to components that perform to highly competitive standards at a reasonable price? Does that person really think they are "saving us" from wasting money?

From a chapter I wrote here 7 years ago:

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Nov 2, 2023 at 3:21 PM Post #129,805 of 170,002
2023 Chapter 14
More is Better

Let’s make this real simple: Yggdrasil More Is Better is the best-measuring multibit DAC in the history of the world. Period.

Yes, even at 20kHz.

And it even sounds good.

How did we achieve this feat? With a new TI precision DAC IC…and the prodding of some early listeners.

Here’s how it happened.


“We Have An Improved DAC11001”, Says TI

The original Yggdrasil More is Less used the TI DAC11001A. This is a great-measuring chip on paper, especially if you concentrate on the One Number to Rule Them metrics (full scale, 1kHz, 20k bandwidth). However, its sonics never impressed Mike or Dave, and as soon as GoldenSound tested it at higher frequencies, it quickly fell apart.

In addition, most reviewers thought it was the least best of the Yggdrasil flavors, including the least-expensive Less is More.

Sales were, well, less than stellar.

“Well, that’s that,” I figured. The high-measuring multibit DAC experiment was over.

Except TI ain’t dumb.

So, several months after launch, they came to us and said, “Hey, we have this improved version of the DAC11001A, the DAC11001B. Would you like to try it?”

Now, I knew the difference between A and B. Or at least I thought I did. Because Analog Devices does A and B grade DACs too.

Aside: confusingly, the B grade is higher in the precision DAC world. Yeah, I know. Talk to them; I’m just the messenger.

And here’s what I thought I knew: A and B grades were no different for what we were doing. Because we’d used both A and B grades of an Analog Devices DAC, and they measured the same in terms of THD, noise, etc in our products.

Needless to say, we weren’t very excited about TI’s new “B” grade parts. Because I expected the same results on the APx.

But TI was persistent.

First, they sent me a handful of pre-production parts to try out. Which is cool and all, but I was busy, and I was going back and forth between Texas and California, and they were in California, so they were only on my desk half the time, so I just, well, kinda ignored them.

But TI eventually reminded me that we had some of their parts, and we should really try them out, and that they had improved the performance at high frequencies.

Now I paid a bit more attention—because performance at high frequencies was the DAC11001A’s bugaboo. But how much better could it be? I mean, the DAC11001A was baaaaaad.

How bad? This bad:

yggy MIL 20k.png

As in, the DAC that measured -118dB THD+N at 1k/20k bandwidth was -48dB at 20k/90k.

Aside: to be fair, it’s a -96dB part at 90k bandwidth, because that’s the way measurements work—the wider the band, the lower the number. -96dB is ****ing fantastic at 90k. It’s just that losing nearly 50dB of performance from 1k to 20k is a problem.

And so I went into this whole thing thinking, well I’ll just swap the parts and see what they mean by “better” and when it’s not better I’ll tell them sorry guys we’re not interested and that will be that.

So I swapped the parts.

And put it on the analyzer.

And saw this:

mib 20k extended.png

Yeah. Right. Better. Like 47dB better.

FORTY SEVEN dB.

47!!!

That’s…pure bonkers.

TI saying “yeah this is better,” all low-key like, is kinda like saying “yeah a hydrogen bomb is better than a firecracker when you’re looking to blow things up.”

I mean, when I shoot for improvements, I’m pretty happy with 6-10dB.

6-10dB is significant. Especially if it’s in noise floor, that’s stuff you can hear.

20dB? Overjoyed.

Forty-friggin-seven dB? I didn’t know what to think. That’s like, higher than the gain on a MM phono preamp. That’s, like, 30,000% better. That’s…just hard to take in.

Now, some people are saying, "Well, that doesn't look like One Number to Rule Them performance!"

Right. Yep. Because One Number to Rule Them is done at 1kHz, not 20Khz, and bandwidth limited to 20kHz. When we do apples to apples, here's what we get:

MIB more better.png

So there you go.

But the real question was: what did it sound like?


The Acid Test

So I took it home and had a listen. And, oh boy, was it different.

In comparison, the old MIL with DAC11001A chips sounded, quite literally, broken. The highs were strange and strained, which was perhaps not surprising considering that their measured results were getting scarily close to transducer distortion levels, while also exhibiting some noise floor modulation.

Was it the best Yggy I’d heard? In some ways yes. In terms of having a dark background, in terms of purity of highs, in terms of overall cohesion, it was better. Dynamics were better on OG and LIM. But OG was a bit gray, and LIM was a bit oversimplified.

The surprise was that it was certainly playing in the same field as those other DACs now!

Aside: when we first introduced the Yggdrasil flavors, we did a real, no-kidding, double-blind listening setup with selected reviewers. No-kidding as in, the guy who set it up wasn’t on site at all, and nobody—not even me—knew what was what. The results were in a sealed, obscured envelope. Before the test, Mike and Dave were vehement about their dislike for MIL, and I thought it would be very funny if they chose that as the best when listening blind. In fact, I almost expected it. What happened was that they went in after the reviewers, sat down, stood up 90 seconds later, and said “X is this, Y is that, and Z is the other thing.” And they were 100% right.

Aside to the aside: and no, the guy who set it up wasn’t Mike or Dave’s friend.

So I brought the Yggy DAC11001B prototype back into the office, where our early panel had a listen and pronounced it good, if a little “twee,” in one person’s words. From there, it went to a couple of other early listeners.

One early listener was shocked how good it was, and agitated for me to bring it out as another Yggdrasil variant. Another was Dan Clark, who loved it and has used it at shows over all other Yggdrasil flavors.

And so, over a fairly short period—weeks, really—we decided to do a short run of Yggdrasil “More is Better,” with the DAC11001B.

Which, as I spend more time with it, is really a fantastic DAC chip. TI is really going for the crown in the precision DAC arena, and this chip really delivers. Even better, it’s less expensive than the Analog Devices AD5791B (though still fairly insanely priced at $62ish in 1000 piece quantities—and we need 4 per Yggdrasil MIB).


Your Chance at MIB

And so now you have another choice in the Yggy flavor wars: Yggdrasil More is Better. It’s not an inexpensive DAC, clocking in at $300 more than Less is More. And, to start, we’re only selling complete DACs, but if you give us a few more weeks, we should have enough available for upgrade boards as well.

Is it for you? Maybe. I consider it the best all-around Yggdrasil.

Mike still likes LIM. Dave still likes OG. But OG is going away. The availability of the Analog Devices AD5791 isn’t confidence inspiring, and its price/performance is now very poor. So the future will be LIM or MIB. Both fantastic DACs. Both TI based. Your choice.

“Will there ever be a ‘More is More?’” someone will ask.

Of course, we’re still going to try to do an ultimate Yggdrasil. But there’s nothing ready for prime time yet. And, consider that if it’s ultimate, it may cost significantly more.

In the meantime, I hope you enjoy MIB, the latest iteration in the evergreen Yggdrasil.
Interesting read.

Despite everything that I have read about MIL, I really enjoyed hearing one some time ago and got me focused on upgrading from my gorgeous Gumby A1 with unison.

Having just bought an Yggy OG (yay!) I can’t wait for it to arrive and to hear it with my Rag 2 and LCD-3.

Would love to see how MIB compares one day.

Even better to consider the art of the possible for an ultimate “Yggy+ Uber” 🤩
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 4:38 PM Post #129,806 of 170,002
We're not afraid of things costing more. We're afraid of things costing more for no reason.
But you could add inch-thick copper base plates, "single crystal wire," gold-plated knobs and VU meters with multi-color LED backlights!
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 4:40 PM Post #129,807 of 170,002
Nov 2, 2023 at 4:42 PM Post #129,808 of 170,002
But you could add inch-thick copper base plates, "single crystal wire," gold-plated knobs and VU meters with multi-color LED backlights!

I vote for LED under-lighting and a bouncing front chassis.

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Nov 2, 2023 at 5:36 PM Post #129,809 of 170,002
But can we get the OG analog stage with the MIB DAC card 👀
I'm sorry, but there won't be any audible difference between any YggDrasil and an Apple dongle. Both are excellent (audibly transparent) the only difference is one costs $1000s more
Have you heard both?
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 5:49 PM Post #129,810 of 170,002
More Iso-Acoustics Love

As a long-term advocate of tightly coupling loudspeaker cabinets to the ground that supports them - a.k.a. a "speaker-spiker", I was astonished the first time I heard a demonstration of the Iso-Acoustics GAIA isolators. The clarity that came from mechanically decoupling the speaker from its ground plane was unexpected, but is totally reproduceable, and audible to just about everyone - audiophool or not. :wink:

A while back, I invested in two sets of GAIA II isolators (and the requisite carpet spikes) and installed them on my main speakers. The improvement in overall sonic clarity far surpassed the cost of the devices, in my opinion. Again... YMMV. The success I 'heard' by installing the GAIA's helped me better understand that throwing more $$$ at electronics isn't always the best path to audio Nirvana...

I've doubled-down on the process of optimizing my listening room - I have already added several ASC TubeTraps, and am planning to record/request a MATT test analysis by Art's team. But, in a moment of weakness (I'm looking at you, Bulleit Orange) - I ordered a set of (smaller) GAIA III isolators (and carpet spikes) for my REL T9/x subwoofers:

IMG_0251.JPEGIMG_0252.JPEGIMG_0255.JPEG

The only installation issue that I encountered - the M6 studs that come with the GAIA IIIs are about 10 mm too long to screw all the way in to the REL's thread inserts. I ran them in to bottom out, then screwed them out a full turn before tightening the M6 flat nut to the bottom of the subs. This leaves a bit of the M6 threaded stud visible, but it's totally fine w/r/t operation of the isolators.

The result: wow. The clarity improvement is tactile. Listening to A Perfect Circle's "The Noose"; Josh Freese's drums and Twiggy Ramirez' bass are now 100% separated (in terms of their sound) and 100% integrated (in terms of the flow of the song). Macht das Sinn? I can follow both musicians' paths individually, almost in complete isolation, yet the sounds their instruments make blend perfectly, at the beat. And best of all, a kick drum sounds like a kick drum, and a bass guitar sounds just like a bass guitar. An amazing improvement in the apparent "accuracy of reproduction" of low bass notes, and a crazy, focused clarity in the lowest octave - forceful and strong, but still crisp and controlled. Hans Zimmer's "2049 (Main Theme)" truly shakes my world now, without shaking the walls, the windows or the furniture... my neighbors love Iso-Acoustics, too.

Overhang? Gone. Mid-bass smear? Gone. There's a solidity to the low bass now that simply elicits a big-a**ed grin - regardless of volume level. No need for a "loudness contour" control - bass is tight and solid, at -55db or at -15db volume levels. Crazy schiit, let me tell you. If anything the GAIAs seem to make a bigger difference on the subs than they did on the main speakers, but a) auditory memory is fleeting and b) I'm too lazy to mess with taking them off the B&Ws. <g>

I am looking forward to the getting the MATT analysis done!

p.s. Mike Starr's bass in Alice in Chains' "Would?" is so prominent now... never heard it rise up out of the drum mix like that... it has historically stood alone in the intro (where is is playing solo), but it fell back a bit / was subsumed when Sean Kinney's drums came up. No longer - now they are two distinct tracks, clear and undistorted. This is just too good. :)

OK, back to work!
Hi @dstrimbu
I was interested to read of your very positive experience with the GAIA isolators. I'm wondering if you or any other Schiitheads out there, have tried or purchased Townshend Podiums which de-couple the speakers from the floor?
Here's a vid. with the late Max Towshend explainIng his product.

 

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