Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Apr 23, 2023 at 10:57 AM Post #117,076 of 150,807
I do not speak for Schiit, but I have a lot of experience setting up HT systems (I once was a THX certified cinema designer, gasp.) In an HT setup, the way I think it would work is:

Most of today's AV sources use HDMI output, so you must connect to an HDMI receiver. (When I say "receiver" I am NOT talking about some behemoth from Denon or Arcam, although as I will mention those will work. I mean something that can accept and decode an HDMI input.) If you have more than one source, the receiver must be able to accept and switch between multiple sources. A remote control for this function might be nice. To use Syn as your surround-sound mixer, the receiver must output either a downmixed stereo analog via RCA or downmixed stereo PCM digital signal via USB or S/PDIF optical.

Examples of the HDMI receiver might include your display, assuming it has an appropriate output (at a fixed level preferably); an HDMI switcher with audio extractor and HDMI output for the display; or a typical AV receiver or preamp/processor - although that is overkill in this application, if you have one with full-signal audio downmix output and are willing to use only it's HDMI processing capabilities, then use it.

The downmixed audio signal is connected to the appropriate Syn input. Since it has an input select switch it is possible to use three different audio sources, one of each type, but let's leave that discussion for another time. The six outputs from Syn connect to the five main amplifier channels: front L and R mains, center, rear L and R surrounds, and to a powered subwoofer. <i> I note that the Syn lacks bass management and assume this output is actually a mono full-range signal.</i> This statement is incorrect, the sub output from Syn includes a 3rd order crossover at 80Hz. This does not impact the following setup comments, in my opinion.
If you are not experienced in integrating a subwoofer with a stereo or surround system, this could be a chapter unto itself. My simple recommendations follow, YMMV depending on your system setup.

I have not set up a Syn yet, but my recommendation as a starting point is to first leave the subwoofer off. This setup assumes doing it by ear and without measurement devices. It's a quick and dirty method. If you have measurement tools or dbSPL meters and understand how to use them, then you likely do not need any advice from me.

Turn everything except the subwoofer on and play some music content you are familiar with. Adjust Syn so you can hear sound through all channels and the balance between center and mains seems equal. Now tweak so the center becomes dominant (the center in an HT setup should be the dominant output.) Now switch to a video source, preferably a movie or television program with heavy dialog. Adjust the Syn until you can clearly hear the dialog through the center speaker and the other channels seem to be balanced but not taking focus away from the center. Now play a movie's theme music, like the excessively long opening or closing theme to Game of Thrones. Sit back with the remote and tweak the levels until it sounds good through all five channels. Now turn your attention to the subwoofer.

Set the crossover to 120Hz (this is the default for Dobly encoded soundtracks.) Set phase if there is one to zero, and turn the level all the way down to zero. While the soundtrack is playing, turn on the sub amp and then slowly turn up the level until it seems to be louder than the main speakers. Now back it down until it sounds equal to the mains. Have someone sit in your desired listening position and experiment with the phase control. Leave it in whatever position is reported as "loudest." If the phase control has no effect leave it in zero. Keep the soundtrack playing (you may have to loop it) and adjust the level until your listening assistant reports that it sounds like it is part of the mains. Turn it up just a bit from there. If you find yourself noticing the sub sound too much, try lowering the crossover a bit but do not go below 80Hz.

Now you have discovered the starting place, or at least the starting place I would use with Syn. From here you may find yourself adjusting and tweaking and playing with the remote and you may find yourself doing this with every type of video you watch. That will be part of the fun of a manual system - you get to be the producer for the experience you desire!

For those of you with Syn, please correct or add to this post. Like I said, I'm writing in a vacuum based on owner's manual information. Actual users will have better information than me.
 
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Apr 23, 2023 at 11:26 AM Post #117,077 of 150,807
But still, regardless of your choice of switching device, at some point you have HDMI with video (and audio) going to the TV right?

Or is the use case you're going after an audio-only source, that nonetheless delivers it exclusively via HDMI, and you don't want your TV on when listening?
IF you want to use Syn in a surround-audio only system and your source is HDMI, then you still need a receiver with audio extraction and downmix capability. Use whatever you like for that. Syn can only accept a stereo audio signal.
 
Apr 23, 2023 at 11:49 AM Post #117,079 of 150,807
I do not speak for Schiit, but I have a lot of experience setting up HT systems (I once was a THX certified cinema designer, gasp.) In an HT setup, the way I think it would work is:

Most of today's AV sources use HDMI output, so you must connect to an HDMI receiver. (When I say "receiver" I am NOT talking about some behemoth from Denon or Arcam, although as I will mention those will work. I mean something that can accept and decode an HDMI input.) If you have more than one source, the receiver must be able to accept and switch between multiple sources. A remote control for this function might be nice. To use Syn as your surround-sound mixer, the receiver must output either a downmixed stereo analog via RCA or downmixed stereo PCM digital signal via USB or S/PDIF optical.

Examples of the HDMI receiver might include your display, assuming it has an appropriate output (at a fixed level preferably); an HDMI switcher with audio extractor and HDMI output for the display; or a typical AV receiver or preamp/processor - although that is overkill in this application, if you have one with full-signal audio downmix output and are willing to use only it's HDMI processing capabilities, then use it.

The downmixed audio signal is connected to the appropriate Syn input. Since it has an input select switch it is possible to use three different audio sources, one of each type, but let's leave that discussion for another time. The six outputs from Syn connect to the five main amplifier channels: front L and R mains, center, rear L and R surrounds, and to a powered subwoofer. I note that the Syn lacks bass management and assume this output is actually a mono full-range signal. So make sure your sub amplifier includes crossover controls. If you are not experienced in integrating a subwoofer with a stereo or surround system, this could be a chapter unto itself. My simple recommendations follow, YMMV depending on your system setup.

I have not set up a Syn yet, but my recommendation as a starting point is to first leave the subwoofer off. This setup assumes doing it by ear and without measurement devices. It's a quick and dirty method. If you have measurement tools or dbSPL meters and understand how to use them, then you likely do not need any advice from me.

Turn everything except the subwoofer on and play some music content you are familiar with. Adjust Syn so you can hear sound through all channels and the balance between center and mains seems equal. Now tweak so the center becomes dominant (the center in an HT setup should be the dominant output.) Now switch to a video source, preferably a movie or television program with heavy dialog. Adjust the Syn until you can clearly hear the dialog through the center speaker and the other channels seem to be balanced but not taking focus away from the center. Now play a movie's theme music, like the excessively long opening or closing theme to Game of Thrones. Sit back with the remote and tweak the levels until it sounds good through all five channels. Now turn your attention to the subwoofer.

Set the crossover to 120Hz (this is the default for Dobly encoded soundtracks.) Set phase if there is one to zero, and turn the level all the way down to zero. While the soundtrack is playing, turn on the sub amp and then slowly turn up the level until it seems to be louder than the main speakers. Now back it down until it sounds equal to the mains. Have someone sit in your desired listening position and experiment with the phase control. Leave it in whatever position is reported as "loudest." If the phase control has no effect leave it in zero. Keep the soundtrack playing (you may have to loop it) and adjust the level until your listening assistant reports that it sounds like it is part of the mains. Turn it up just a bit from there. If you find yourself noticing the sub sound too much, try lowering the crossover a bit but do not go below 80Hz.

Now you have discovered the starting place, or at least the starting place I would use with Syn. From here you may find yourself adjusting and tweaking and playing with the remote and you may find yourself doing this with every type of video you watch. That will be part of the fun of a manual system - you get to be the producer for the experience you desire!

For those of you with Syn, please correct or add to this post. Like I said, I'm writing in a vacuum based on owner's manual information. Actual users will have better information than me.

I thought I read somewhere that Jason said the Syn sub output has an 80hz cutoff.

As for your earlier question about the video and audio parts of the HDMI signal, my TV has an optical out, which I set to PCM but for whatever reason the Syn doesn't decode it so I bought this J-Tech HDMI audio extractor from Amazon which so far has worked fine:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074HHSJVN

However, it still sends the audio portion through HDMI also (so it is an extractor, not splitter) and I have to switch the TV to external speaker otherwise the sound plays through the TV and the amp/speakers connected to the Syn.
 
Apr 23, 2023 at 11:54 AM Post #117,080 of 150,807
I thought I read somewhere that Jason said the Syn sub output has an 80hz cutoff.
Perhaps it does, in which case that part of my instruction is wrong. The specs do list this:

Subwoofer Out
Frequency Response: -3dB at 80 Hz

But it was unclear to me if that implies an actual crossover or just a measurement reference.
 
Apr 23, 2023 at 11:59 AM Post #117,081 of 150,807
Danny profits from " improvements " to others products, and promotion of his own. This rubs me the wrong way.
I can see why some might get offended by someone disparaging their favorite brand. I agree Danny does no favors by doing that.

There are lots of things that can be objectively improved by swapping out OEM parts with better parts. Cars, boats, computers, etc. But considering how poorly many factory speakers measure, it’s no wonder why people send their speakers to Danny.

When I first heard about Danny I was still learning about audio circuits. Speakers crossovers weren’t on my radar until then. Curiosity got me to experiment on the speakers I had at the time. Simply swapping out the cheap caps on the tweeters made for an immediately noticeable change. I didn’t have to buy anything from Danny to try this. Just the idea that the parts included in a factory speaker could affect the sound this dramatically kinda shocked me.

I explained this to a friend of mine and he asked me to see if I could improve his cheap Polk tower speakers. I contacted Polk to get the crossover schematic and not only were they fine doing so ( for discontinued models) they even gave me the most recent version of the circuit. I was surprised to find each tower had a different version of the crossover! I swapped out a cap on the tweeter and a coil on the woofer. It sounded more detailed, had tighter and better defined bass, and even seemed to improve their power handling. You could push them louder without them sounding like they were straining. My friend was blown away by the change! At that point I trusted that Danny knew what he was doing. And I didn’t have to buy anything from him.

Around the same time I heard speakers he designed and again was very impressed. I had owned B&W, Definitive Technology, Aperion, Paradigm, Klipsch, and Gallo. AV123’s speakers, designed by Danny, beat all of them up for the money. They were well braced (which you don’t see in lower cost speakers) and came with higher quality parts in their crossovers. In direct comparisons they highlighted every flaw the branded speakers had. Since then I replaced all of my speakers with Danny’s designs. Are there better speakers out there? Absolutely! But you will spend more money to get there.

I get why people don’t like his lack of tact. For me it’s a level of honesty I don’t see very often in an industry filled with hyperbole and marketing bs. It’s similar to why I’m a fan of Schiit. Jason and Mike are honest about their products and the industry. A lot of us get a kick out of Mike saying things sound like ass. Granted he doesn’t name names. At least not in public. But there is a similarity with the idea that you shouldn’t have to spend a fortune to get great sound. And that’s what Danny is all about. Yeah, he makes digs at these big name brands but when you see how they’re made, how they measure, and how they’re priced, sometimes they kind of deserve it.
 
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Apr 23, 2023 at 12:01 PM Post #117,082 of 150,807
Perhaps it does, in which case that part of my instruction is wrong. The specs do list this:

Subwoofer Out
Frequency Response: -3dB at 80 Hz

But it was unclear to me if that implies an actual crossover or just a measurement reference.
Well I looked for where Jason talked about 80hz and I couldn't find it so maybe I am mistaken. But I remember thinking at the time if there's no volume control for the sub then why not let the sub determine the cutoff frequency also instead of setting it at 80hz?
 
Apr 23, 2023 at 12:20 PM Post #117,083 of 150,807
Well I looked for where Jason talked about 80hz and I couldn't find it so maybe I am mistaken. But I remember thinking at the time if there's no volume control for the sub then why not let the sub determine the cutoff frequency also instead of setting it at 80hz?
I've listened to several reviews and am pretty sure he did limit the sub out to outputting 80hz and lower frequencies. I'm scratching my head as well and all I could come up with is that maybe he was thinking of accommodating passive subs being driven by a separate amp? Or maybe it's a better match for subs with only an LFE input? I'd love to know more of the reasoning behind that decision, however. Just out of curiosity more than concern.

BTW -- from the Syn FAQ:
  • Subwoofer. This is a filtered low-frequency output you can run to any subwoofer’s LFE input and get extended low-frequency results from.
Not a lot of detail.
 
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Apr 23, 2023 at 12:23 PM Post #117,084 of 150,807
Well I looked for where Jason talked about 80hz and I couldn't find it so maybe I am mistaken. But I remember thinking at the time if there's no volume control for the sub then why not let the sub determine the cutoff frequency also instead of setting it at 80hz?
You could split the main outputs to go to both main amps and sub(s).
 
Apr 23, 2023 at 12:29 PM Post #117,085 of 150,807
Apr 23, 2023 at 2:18 PM Post #117,087 of 150,807
I thought I read somewhere that Jason said the Syn sub output has an 80hz cutoff.
I wish the Syn had the "standard" Dolby 120Hz. Adds a bit of flexibility that the 80Hz precludes.

my TV has an optical out, which I set to PCM but for whatever reason the Syn doesn't decode
Could be you were sending surround-encoded PCM to the Syn?
Make sure to have the TV downmix to stereo PCM and isn't set to some variation of passthrough, surround etc out the optical.

... Since then I replaced all of my speakers with Danny’s designs. Are there better speakers out there? Absolutely! But you will spend more money to get there. ...
Yeah. Those and Philharmonic Audio's really are efficient when it comes to converting your $$$ into audio reproduction quality. I mean, I was really stunned when I saw the price of the Philharmonic True Minis and their measured response.
 
Apr 23, 2023 at 2:20 PM Post #117,088 of 150,807
Apr 23, 2023 at 3:14 PM Post #117,089 of 150,807
I do not speak for Schiit, but I have a lot of experience setting up HT systems (I once was a THX certified cinema designer, gasp.) In an HT setup, the way I think it would work is:

Most of today's AV sources use HDMI output, so you must connect to an HDMI receiver. (When I say "receiver" I am NOT talking about some behemoth from Denon or Arcam, although as I will mention those will work. I mean something that can accept and decode an HDMI input.) If you have more than one source, the receiver must be able to accept and switch between multiple sources. A remote control for this function might be nice. To use Syn as your surround-sound mixer, the receiver must output either a downmixed stereo analog via RCA or downmixed stereo PCM digital signal via USB or S/PDIF optical.

Examples of the HDMI receiver might include your display, assuming it has an appropriate output (at a fixed level preferably); an HDMI switcher with audio extractor and HDMI output for the display; or a typical AV receiver or preamp/processor - although that is overkill in this application, if you have one with full-signal audio downmix output and are willing to use only it's HDMI processing capabilities, then use it.

The downmixed audio signal is connected to the appropriate Syn input. Since it has an input select switch it is possible to use three different audio sources, one of each type, but let's leave that discussion for another time. The six outputs from Syn connect to the five main amplifier channels: front L and R mains, center, rear L and R surrounds, and to a powered subwoofer. <i> I note that the Syn lacks bass management and assume this output is actually a mono full-range signal.</i> This statement is incorrect, the sub output from Syn includes a 3rd order crossover at 80Hz. This does not impact the following setup comments, in my opinion.
If you are not experienced in integrating a subwoofer with a stereo or surround system, this could be a chapter unto itself. My simple recommendations follow, YMMV depending on your system setup.

I have not set up a Syn yet, but my recommendation as a starting point is to first leave the subwoofer off. This setup assumes doing it by ear and without measurement devices. It's a quick and dirty method. If you have measurement tools or dbSPL meters and understand how to use them, then you likely do not need any advice from me.

Turn everything except the subwoofer on and play some music content you are familiar with. Adjust Syn so you can hear sound through all channels and the balance between center and mains seems equal. Now tweak so the center becomes dominant (the center in an HT setup should be the dominant output.) Now switch to a video source, preferably a movie or television program with heavy dialog. Adjust the Syn until you can clearly hear the dialog through the center speaker and the other channels seem to be balanced but not taking focus away from the center. Now play a movie's theme music, like the excessively long opening or closing theme to Game of Thrones. Sit back with the remote and tweak the levels until it sounds good through all five channels. Now turn your attention to the subwoofer.

Set the crossover to 120Hz (this is the default for Dobly encoded soundtracks.) Set phase if there is one to zero, and turn the level all the way down to zero. While the soundtrack is playing, turn on the sub amp and then slowly turn up the level until it seems to be louder than the main speakers. Now back it down until it sounds equal to the mains. Have someone sit in your desired listening position and experiment with the phase control. Leave it in whatever position is reported as "loudest." If the phase control has no effect leave it in zero. Keep the soundtrack playing (you may have to loop it) and adjust the level until your listening assistant reports that it sounds like it is part of the mains. Turn it up just a bit from there. If you find yourself noticing the sub sound too much, try lowering the crossover a bit but do not go below 80Hz.

Now you have discovered the starting place, or at least the starting place I would use with Syn. From here you may find yourself adjusting and tweaking and playing with the remote and you may find yourself doing this with every type of video you watch. That will be part of the fun of a manual system - you get to be the producer for the experience you desire!

For those of you with Syn, please correct or add to this post. Like I said, I'm writing in a vacuum based on owner's manual information. Actual users will have better information than me.

Basically, but you're going too complicated. Syn is built for typical screen applications, which today means a smart TV, and minimal peripherals. What does this mean?

It means, here's how 95% of humans watch stuff in the living room:

Smart TV --> Human (yes with built-in sound!)

2-3% of humans do this:

Smart TV --> Soundbar --> Human

1-2% of humans do this:

Sources --> AVR --> Smart TV and Speakers --> Human

0.01% of humans do this:

Sources --> AV Preamp with custom room correction --> Projector in black-painted room --> 32.4 ATOMS certified by grand master AV specialist to cinema criteria --> Humans sipping Bordeaux from varietal-specific Reidel glasses

Syn is intended to expand out from the 95%, like this:

Smart TV --> Syn --> Amps/Speakers --> Human
or
Source --> HDMI De-embedder --> Syn --> Amps/Speakers --> Human

As in, connect your smart TV to Syn via optical, and you're done.

Unless you have other sources, then plug in your AppleTV or Blu-Ray into your smart TV via HDMI, then go from TV to Syn via optical, and you're done.

Unless you have a projector with no optical out, then you use an HDMI de-embedder to connect to Syn via optical and you're done.

Simple. Easy. Leave HDMI where HDMI has to be used--for A/V transmission--and use optical for sound. Done.

Adjusting levels? Start with all knobs at 12:00 and tweak from there.

USB? That's for gaming or a computer source. Don't worry about that with a smart TV.
I wish the Syn had the "standard" Dolby 120Hz. Adds a bit of flexibility that the 80Hz precludes.
We tried that. Sounded like ass. 80Hz/18dB per octave was best for integration with non-plastic non-crap speakers.

But yes, Syn has a 80Hz/18dB filter in the sub out, non-defeatable. If that doesn't work for your needs, Y off of the mains and set the subwoofer where you want it. A $200 sub has those controls, as well as an LFE input that works fine with our "non-standard" 80Hz output. Though I would suggest a better sub than that.
 
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Apr 23, 2023 at 3:57 PM Post #117,090 of 150,807
Thanks for chiming in, Jason! I guess I've been living in your 1-2% category for so long that I assumed every other user here would be too. Actually I'm likely in the less than 1% as my system has used separates instead of an an AVR for a few decades. :)
 

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