Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Aug 29, 2021 at 9:15 AM Post #81,151 of 151,221
@AudioGal has my address, just yesterday I received 6sn7 tubes from her. :L3000:
Ummm...Does this mean that you received 6 sn7 tubes or an undisclosed number of 6sn7 tubes? As the bank robber guy says at the beginning of the Dirty Harry film, "I gots to know!".

That same actor later played at least one more role in the franchise. I think it may have been two more roles but I have CRSS. "Can't Remember Schiit Syndrome" (spelling of key word altered to make it more thread palatable). Use less trivia, I know. And now so do all of you.

ORT
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 9:16 AM Post #81,152 of 151,221
If Schiit stuff was not made in the U.S would you guys still choose it over topping, smsl, Gustard etc?

Personally I feel like Schiit is going after the "flavour" of the month.

AKM chips, ESS sabre , multibit, tubes..and kinda back and forth between what's best?
Having heard topping, gustard and SLS in the same system with an Yggy, the answer is an unequivocal yes.
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 9:17 AM Post #81,153 of 151,221
If we are going this route, McMaster-Carr goes to 500MCM, and at work we love to pull 750 MCM or 1000 MCM for stuff when you are talking 480VAC with heavy loading - and even then we have to pull multiple cables per phase since it doesn't go to 4000 or 5000 amps. Anything bigger I have seen swap to water-cooled copper or aluminum busbars.
In my previous job we used multiple bus bars per phase. 50-100 volts at 4000-5000 amps. No one with a pacemaker could work in the area.
I don’t think it would be convenient for a portable headphone, maybe a desktop? 😉
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 9:24 AM Post #81,154 of 151,221
If we are going this route, McMaster-Carr goes to 500MCM, and at work we love to pull 750 MCM or 1000 MCM for stuff when you are talking 480VAC with heavy loading - and even then we have to pull multiple cables per phase since it doesn't go to 4000 or 5000 amps. Anything bigger I have seen swap to water-cooled copper or aluminum busbars.
Nobody likes a showoff!
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 9:31 AM Post #81,155 of 151,221
If Schiit stuff was not made in the U.S would you guys still choose it over topping, smsl, Gustard etc?

Personally I feel like Schiit is going after the "flavour" of the month.

AKM chips, ESS sabre , multibit, tubes..and kinda back and forth between what's best?
Remarkable comment to say the least. I'm from your neighbor country and yet I like Schiit for a decade now. I find them very consistent.
Can't say love them because it's American, nor can I say despite it's American, but just because they are the most straight up company in audio I've seen in decades.

I find them totally the opposite of what you're saying. Not into the the flavor of the month like many brands are.
Flavor of the month for me being:
- milled aluminum cabinets. Look ma what I've got
- higher prices for less equipment because it's a new model. Appears to be general rule nowadays
- Every quarter a new and "better"product. To keep sales up to scale
- Upscale in price by bling and blah, but not by sound quality
- Every month new BS marketing terms
- Selling old worn out topologies as the news of the month
- Bringing a new model whenever manufactures XYZ introduces a new chip.

AKM to ESS switch was forced by a fire if you haven't noticed.
Multibit has been around from day one if you haven't noticed.
Tubes have been around from day one if you haven't noticed.
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 9:33 AM Post #81,156 of 151,221
Ummm...Does this mean that you received 6 sn7 tubes or an undisclosed number of 6sn7 tubes? As the bank robber guy says at the beginning of the Dirty Harry film, "I gots to know!".

That same actor later played at least one more role in the franchise. I think it may have been two more roles but I have CRSS. "Can't Remember Schiit Syndrome" (spelling of key word altered to make it more thread palatable). Use less trivia, I know. And now so do all of you.

ORT
6sn7 is of course a tube type found in Schiit Freya +, Saga, and Lyr 3. I loaned some to Audiogal and she was kind enough to return them. :ksc75smile: At one point I loaned some to Jason for a tube shootout. I suppose it was double blind since all tubes were encased in pvc and their identities were only revealed after the test was over.

I have since worked with local friends to set up a study of over 1900 equivalents and to see which might be considered the best sounding as chosen by a group of 50 listeners. The 1900 was reduced to a group of 52 for final testing, eight of us listened to all of them. This started with a blind test @bcowen was kind enough to participate in and it grew from there.

Pvc is not used in current testing, I went with metal cages on four identical headphone amps.

To the best of my recollection Mr. Cowen was able to name five of the eight tubes while listening with a Lyr 3. This to me is like having eight unknown glasses of red wine set in front of you and naming the wine type and country of origin of five of eight.



8 tubes in pvc.jpg
IMG_2811 (2).jpg
 
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Aug 29, 2021 at 9:33 AM Post #81,157 of 151,221
In my previous job we used multiple bus bars per phase. 50-100 volts at 4000-5000 amps. No one with a pacemaker could work in the area.
I don’t think it would be convenient for a portable headphone, maybe a desktop? 😉
LOL! I just use a double run of this for low current stuff (like tonearm wiring) and then quadruple it for interconnects. Maybe 8 runs per polarity for speaker wire, but I haven't tried that yet. :sweat_smile:

1630243852156.png
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 9:40 AM Post #81,158 of 151,221
Does a day of posts about cables land on the part of the sine wave that indicates URD will be released soon?

Asking for a friend. :smile_cat:
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 9:57 AM Post #81,159 of 151,221
If Schiit stuff was not made in the U.S would you guys still choose it over topping, smsl, Gustard etc?

Personally I feel like Schiit is going after the "flavour" of the month.

AKM chips, ESS sabre , multibit, tubes..and kinda back and forth between what's best?
You are right, that's what it can look like. But I'd like to offer up a few arguments against it.

To the casual observer, Schiit sure can seem a bit indecisive at times: DS AKM here, DS ESS there, Multibit AD here, Multibit TI there, Sol here, Sol-less there (yes, Schiit has gone dark and is now a company without a Sol, and we all have to learn to somehow deal with it), boxed transformer here, toroidal transformer there, SPDIF is better here, Unison is better there, tubes are really hard to source here, let's sell an amp that requires ten tubes there, silver here, black there…

But indecisiveness is not what's going on. (For the most part, at least.)

The AKM vs. ESS thing was forced by AKM's factory burning to a crisp. The Sol-lessness is because the thing just didn't sell enough to warrant the effort that would go into keeping the product alive. The boxed vs. toroidal transformer thing is because Jason mentioned that even though toroidal ones sound better, they just weren't able to find (good enough) ones when they originally designed Ragnarok. That, apparently, has changed. SPDIF arguably DOES sound better than USB, but then they attempted their own implementation with Unison, and it turns out that this implementation outperforms SPDIF, so now that sounds better. The silver vs. black thing is due to the fact that silver is Jason's preferred finish, but really hard to get right, especially lately, so they also inadvertently opened a whole can of worms by also offering a black option.

But there are of course also cases that aren't as clear-cut, decisions that really do seem like pure indecisiveness, like Magni 3+ vs. Magni Heresy. So what's up with that?
Well, these are products where the team at Schiit either can't quite settle on which sounds better, or where they want to try something new with a product without having to axe the existing one. In those cases, they opt to offer both variants and let the market decide which of the two flavors they want. Jason calls this the Thunderdome; let the two versions of a product fight it out until one comes out the other end as the winner.

So, to make this long story short:
What you are watching might look like "flavor of the month" hunting or indecisiveness, but it isn't. What's happening at Schiit is more akin to rapid prototyping. A lot of businesses do that, although arguably not enough, but almost none of them include their customers into the process as much as Schiit does. So you simply end up seeing how the sausage is made. That's all.

But why do they do that, and most other (audio) companies don't? Why risk to look like you don't know what you're doing to the uninitiated? Why risk appearing indecisive and flavor-of-the-month-hunting? Why risk losing out on sales by option-overloading shoppers?

Three and a half reasons that I (as someone with ZERO insight into Schiit's inner decision making processes) can think of:

First, and most obviously; With stuff like the AKM vs. ESS situation, they simply had no choice. It's either switch, or stop making delta sigma DACs. I think it's clear that the latter option isn't realistic, so they went with the first.

Second; audio is inherently subjective. When you design and sell audio gear, you literally can't win. Ever. If you're a people pleaser, for the love of all the gods and the sake of your mental health, stay the heck away from designing and selling audio gear. Because no matter what you do, you will inevitably hit the taste of a few, but miss the taste of most. That's just how it is. Sure, there are objectivist audio gear consumers who prefer to hunt down the best-measuring gear. And that's ok, it is one legitimate way out of many to figure out what's "best" for you. But Schiit isn't in the business of making the best-measuring stuff. They try, here and there, just for Schiits and giggles, but more often than not, the worse-measuring prototypes end up in production, simply because their internal auditioning process revealed those to sound better, measurements be damned.

Third; options are a good thing. Sometimes. As is the case with Magni 3+ and Magni Heresy, and as it seems to be the case with Yggy "less is more" and Yggy "more is less", two versions of the same product can sound different enough, yet both of them still good enough, that the internal auditioning process just doesn't lead to a clear winner. So why not let the market decide which one they want?
Also, as a purely speculative aside: I believe there are signs that the availability of Analog Devices chips might not be able to keep pace with the ever-growing number of Multibit DACs sold these days. It feels like more and more audio connoisseurs agree that delta-sigma might be great for cheap and/or mass market audio gear, but it just doesn't measure up (flaming pun most assuredly intended) to Multibit or ladder designs. But those Analog Devices chips really are expensive a.f., and if you look at the backorder time estimates of recent months, their overall availability seems to have become somewhat of a bottleneck. So I am very much tempted to hazard the guess that the whole Texas Instruments situation with Yggy might be Schiit's way of testing the waters in terms of the market's acceptance of alternative implementations to the proven-to-be-a-hit AD implementation of Multibit. Also, can't hurt to have a second leg to stand on, just in case AKM isn't the only company dumb enough to bet the farm on just a single fabrication line.

Three-and-a-half'th; maybe, and just maybe, just to prove a point. You can argue 'till the cows come home whether a better-measuring product also sounds better. Godspeed to you if you want to try. Since you can't argue taste, though, it's an inherently moot debate where everybody just ends up losing. What you CAN do, however, is collect votes.
By his own admission, Yggy OG is still the best-sounding DAC Mike knows how to design. And the way I have come to judge his character, I have no reason to believe that he would have kept (and, evidently, will keep) Yggy A2 the way it was for this long - and sleep at night - if he had a better design float'n' around in his noggin'. So if they arguably won't necessarily sound any better than the OG, why the new TI options, and TWO at that? Well, Yggy OG might sound like heaven, but it measures like hell. And unfortunately, at this price point, I'd assume that sales lost to so-called "bad measurements" can actually hurt quite a bit. So why not offer an option for the number hunters? That way, you have a product in your line to make the objectivists happy without having to punish the subjectivists that helped you grow to where you are today. If the Yggy "more is less" sells like hotcakes? Great! Moa moneyz! And if it doesn't, that's fine, too. Then you're one step closer to proving what you've been preaching for more than a decade: That measurements simply do :clap: not :clap: predict :clap: sound quality.

But who knows, they could also just be comically bad at making up their minds and/or at how to run and market from scratch a successful, rapidly growing, internationally appreciated, and critically acclaimed business in a tiny and highly volatile market that is to a considerable extend made up of very noisy and opinionated torches-and-pitchforks-wielding armchair experts. So who's to tell, really. :grin:
 
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Aug 29, 2021 at 10:52 AM Post #81,160 of 151,221
If Schiit stuff was not made in the U.S would you guys still choose it over topping, smsl, Gustard etc?

Personally I feel like Schiit is going after the "flavour" of the month.

AKM chips, ESS sabre , multibit, tubes..and kinda back and forth between what's best?

Yes, made in US means nothing to me. They make good sounding gear that looks pretty and is reasonably priced. I also like that they support their local businesses, are very upfront and don’t take themselves too seriously. Most importantly, I dig that they don’t go where the fence is lowest and make their own in-house solutions, like Unison USB, Multibit DACs and numerous amplifier designs.
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 10:57 AM Post #81,161 of 151,221
Does a day of posts about cables land on the part of the sine wave that indicates URD will be released soon?

Asking for a friend. :smile_cat:
Happy to help.
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 11:09 AM Post #81,162 of 151,221
I have since worked with local friends to set up a study of over 1900 equivalents and to see which might be considered the best sounding as chosen by a group of 50 listeners. The 1900 was reduced to a group of 52 for final testing, eight of us listened to all of them. This started with a blind test @bcowen was kind enough to participate in and it grew from there.
Fascinating. Have the results been documented somewhere? I'd positively LOVE to take a look at all the different opinions and outcomes that this surely must have produced.
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 11:45 AM Post #81,163 of 151,221
You are right, that's what it can look like. But I'd like to offer up a few arguments against it.

To the casual observer, Schiit sure can seem a bit indecisive at times: DS AKM here, DS ESS there, Multibit AD here, Multibit TI there, Sol here, Sol-less there (yes, Schiit has gone dark and is now a company without a Sol, and we all have to learn to somehow deal with it), boxed transformer here, toroidal transformer there, SPDIF is better here, Unison is better there, tubes are really hard to source here, let's sell an amp that requires ten tubes there, silver here, black there…

But indecisiveness is not what's going on. (For the most part, at least.)

The AKM vs. ESS thing was forced by AKM's factory burning to a crisp. The Sol-lessness is because the thing just didn't sell enough to warrant the effort that would go into keeping the product alive. The boxed vs. toroidal transformer thing is because Jason mentioned that even though toroidal ones sound better, they just weren't able to find (good enough) ones when they originally designed Ragnarok. That, apparently, has changed. SPDIF arguably DOES sound better than USB, but then they attempted their own implementation with Unison, and it turns out that this implementation outperforms SPDIF, so now that sounds better. The silver vs. black thing is due to the fact that silver is Jason's preferred finish, but really hard to get right, especially lately, so they also inadvertently opened a whole can of worms by also offering a black option.

But there are of course also cases that aren't as clear-cut, decisions that really do seem like pure indecisiveness, like Magni 3+ vs. Magni Heresy. So what's up with that?
Well, these are products where the team at Schiit either can't quite settle on which sounds better, or where they want to try something new with a product without having to axe the existing one. In those cases, they opt to offer both variants and let the market decide which of the two flavors they want. Jason calls this the Thunderdome; let the two versions of a product fight it out until one comes out the other end as the winner.

So, to make this long story short:
What you are watching might look like "flavor of the month" hunting or indecisiveness, but it isn't. What's happening at Schiit is more akin to rapid prototyping. A lot of businesses do that, although arguably not enough, but almost none of them include their customers into the process as much as Schiit does. So you simply end up seeing how the sausage is made. That's all.

But why do they do that, and most other (audio) companies don't? Why risk to look like you don't know what you're doing to the uninitiated? Why risk appearing indecisive and flavor-of-the-month-hunting? Why risk losing out on sales by option-overloading shoppers?

Three and a half reasons that I (as someone with ZERO insight into Schiit's inner decision making processes) can think of:

First, and most obviously; With stuff like the AKM vs. ESS situation, they simply had no choice. It's either switch, or stop making delta sigma DACs. I think it's clear that the latter option isn't realistic, so they went with the first.

Second; audio is inherently subjective. When you design and sell audio gear, you literally can't win. Ever. If you're a people pleaser, for the love of all the gods and the sake of your mental health, stay the heck away from designing and selling audio gear. Because no matter what you do, you will inevitably hit the taste of a few, but miss the taste of most. That's just how it is. Sure, there are objectivist audio gear consumers who prefer to hunt down the best-measuring gear. And that's ok, it is one legitimate way out of many to figure out what's "best" for you. But Schiit isn't in the business of making the best-measuring stuff. They try, here and there, just for Schiits and giggles, but more often than not, the worse-measuring prototypes end up in production, simply because their internal auditioning process revealed those to sound better, measurements be damned.

Third; options are a good thing. Sometimes. As is the case with Magni 3+ and Magni Heresy, and as it seems to be the case with Yggy "less is more" and Yggy "more is less", two versions of the same product can sound different enough, yet both of them still good enough, that the internal auditioning process just doesn't lead to a clear winner. So why not let the market decide which one they want?
Also, as a purely speculative aside: I believe there are signs that the availability of Analog Devices chips might not be able to keep pace with the ever-growing number of Multibit DACs sold these days. It feels like more and more audio connoisseurs agree that delta-sigma might be great for cheap and/or mass market audio gear, but it just doesn't measure up (flaming pun most assuredly intended) to Multibit or ladder designs. But those Analog Devices chips really are expensive a.f., and if you look at the backorder time estimates of recent months, their overall availability seems to have become somewhat of a bottleneck. So I am very much tempted to hazard the guess that the whole Texas Instruments situation with Yggy might be Schiit's way of testing the waters in terms of the market's acceptance of alternative implementations to the proven-to-be-a-hit AD implementation of Multibit. Also, can't hurt to have a second leg to stand on, just in case AKM isn't the only company dumb enough to bet the farm on just a single fabrication line.

Three-and-a-half'th; maybe, and just maybe, just to prove a point. You can argue 'till the cows come home whether a better-measuring product also sounds better. Godspeed to you if you want to try. Since you can't argue taste, though, it's an inherently moot debate where everybody just ends up losing. What you CAN do, however, is collect votes.
By his own admission, Yggy OG is still the best-sounding DAC Mike knows how to design. And the way I have come to judge his character, I have no reason to believe that he would have kept (and, evidently, will keep) Yggy A2 the way it was for this long - and sleep at night - if he had a better design float'n' around in his noggin'. So if they arguably won't necessarily sound any better than the OG, why the new TI options, and TWO at that? Well, Yggy OG might sound like heaven, but it measures like hell. And unfortunately, at this price point, I'd assume that sales lost to so-called "bad measurements" can actually hurt quite a bit. So why not offer an option for the number hunters? That way, you have a product in your line to make the objectivists happy without having to punish the subjectivists that helped you grow to where you are today. If the Yggy "more is less" sells like hotcakes? Great! Moa moneyz! And if it doesn't, that's fine, too. Then you're one step closer to proving what you've been preaching for more than a decade: That measurements simply do :clap: not :clap: predict :clap: sound quality.

But who knows, they could also just be comically bad at making up their minds and/or at how to run and market from scratch a successful, rapidly growing, internationally appreciated, and critically acclaimed business in a tiny and highly volatile market that is to a considerable extend made up of very noisy and opinionated torches-and-pitchforks-wielding armchair experts. So who's to tell, really. :grin:
I have no problem at all with the way Schiit introduces new products, or any other aspect of its operation.
I am a huge fan of the company, its whole ethos and products.

I auditioned several competitors' DACs, which purport to 'measure well' , before I bought my original (A1) Yggy several years ago.
To borrow Mike's excellent expression, many of them sounded 'like ass' and even the better-sounding ones offered little or no improvement on what I already had.
I sent them all back, because, for me, they simply weren't worth the money

Had it not been for the Schiit Yggdrasil, I would probably still be using the internal DAC in my 13 year old Logitech Transporter!
It uses an AKM AK4396 chip which , confusingly, is described in the specifications as a 'Multi-bit delta-sigma digital-to-analog converter' :thinking:

I have absolutely no idea what that means, and care even less!
It is obviously old tech now, and probably cost peanuts even back in 2007. I have seen an AK4396 chip on eBay for $8.34!
However, it sounds remarkably good ( to my ears) in the Transporter implementation.

I really couldn't give a s**t about measurements, once you get to the level of audio engineering excellence which Schiit are achieving with products like Yggy, and many other of their MB DACs.
I am interested in audio gear but far more interested in enjoying music which sounds as 'natural' and 'real' as possible in a home environment.

The Yggy does that for me and I will not be looking to replace it..... unless it breaks:beyersmile:
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 11:45 AM Post #81,164 of 151,221
If Schiit stuff was not made in the U.S would you guys still choose it over topping, smsl, Gustard etc?
Or Rega, Cambridge Audio, …

People are different. Some care about what things sound like, some care about what their choices say about them.

Personally I feel like Schiit is going after the "flavour" of the month.

Well, they skipped MQA :p

AKM chips, ESS sabre , multibit, tubes..and kinda back and forth between what's best?

:musical_score:One of these things is not like the other…:musical_score:

Enjoy the hobby, man. Manufacturers, hobbyists, and the general market all go back and forth components and technology all the time. AKM factory burned down. ESS chips have been performing great for a long time. Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, ..

Schiit brought back (or flat out introduced) ladder D/A conversion to us poor masses (aside: dCS has a very nice implementation in their Ring DAC — if you haven’t auditioned the $18k Bartok, do, and bring some whiskey for the poor staff at the audio store who will have to deal with you sitting there all day in trance). Implementation detail for most, sounds “great” for some. In the end, the market wins, and people buy what they can and like.

Speaking of going back: I was at a record store yesterday and saw Billie Eilish’ latest album released on cassette tape. As in ”bring a pencil”. I also saw the most people I’ve ever seen purchasing new releases on vinyl — and most were teenagers! :dark_sunglasses:

Some folks have what they like, others are chasing it.
 
Aug 29, 2021 at 11:56 AM Post #81,165 of 151,221
Or Rega, Cambridge Audio, …

People are different. Some care about what things sound like, some care about what their choices say about them.



Well, they skipped MQA :p



:musical_score:One of these things is not like the other…:musical_score:

Enjoy the hobby, man. Manufacturers, hobbyists, and the general market all go back and forth components and technology all the time. AKM factory burned down. ESS chips have been performing great for a long time. Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, ..

Schiit brought back (or flat out introduced) ladder D/A conversion to us poor masses (aside: dCS has a very nice implementation in their Ring DAC — if you haven’t auditioned the $18k Bartok, do, and bring some whiskey for the poor staff at the audio store who will have to deal with you sitting there all day in trance). Implementation detail for most, sounds “great” for some. In the end, the market wins, and people buy what they can and like.

Speaking of going back: I was at a record store yesterday and saw Billie Eilish’ latest album released on cassette tape. As in ”bring a pencil”. I also saw the most people I’ve ever seen purchasing new releases on vinyl — and most were teenagers! :dark_sunglasses:

Some folks have what they like, others are chasing it.
I agree with you @rfernand :relaxed:

Many years ago, at a Hi Fi show near my home, I heard a DcS Vivaldi 'stack'.
I think the total cost was something crazy like £80k!
It was the best sounding system ( analogue or digital) that I had ever heard. ( It was long before the Yggy was launched)

I have no idea how it would now compare to my Yggy and I am really not interested in finding out, as I am very happy with what I have.

The DcS Bartok uses much of the technology ( Ring DAC) from Vivaldi and I have heard from people whose views I respect, that it sounds amazing- but so it should, at £15k in the UK!

Schiit produces superbly engineered products, which sound fantastic, at reasonable prices.

That is why I own an Yggy A2, a Freya S and a Lokius and will probably add an 'Urd'... :beyersmile:
 

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