[PastorOfMuppets]

Yggy 11 will only play spinal tap records.

 

[Ableza]

Of course, perhaps we are incompetent. Perhaps every other manufacturer on the planet always has a clear win every time they decide to do an improved product, and the product is clearly better every time, and worth a significant price increase. That's entirely possible. I know I'm fallible. So maybe that's it.

Not incompetent (and anyone who thinks that knows nothing about this industry) although you can sometimes be, thankfully, obsolete.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Deleted some political stuff too. Yes, political. No, I don't care what side you are on. Yes, I know it is a terrible thing that the other side is 100% wrong all the time and it's a big big problem that they're wrong on the internets!!!!

Me? I am on the side of "making audio gear" and "staying in operation."

Please leave politics out of this thread.

 

[Stevko]

A cheap $99 tube-buffer would be nice

 

[OldRoadToad]

Who said there wasn't an "A3" AD5791 board (that turned out to be one you don't want?)

FWIW, the standard Yggdrasil AD5791 boards are "2.01." The DAC8812 boards are "3.02". The DAC11001 boards are "7.03." I have boards sitting on the prototype shelf up to "10.1." There have been a ton of prototypes, including what you might consider to be "Analog 3." And the "improved" AD5791 board turned out to be, ah, not so "improved."

Proof of 10 Yggdrasil variants:



Excuse us for only producing the best-measuring multibit DAC as one of the options (More is Less).

Excuse us for reducing the cost of what most consider to be the best Yggdrasil option with 16-bit DACs (Less is More).

Excuse us for passing along price increases for the AD5791, which are almost all caused by significantly higher AD5791 and PCB prices, and is significantly less than inflation since the Yggdrasil's inception, while also including Unison USB and Analog 2.

Excuse us for planning a true double-blind listening test with multiple reviewers, to help you choose the Yggdrasil that's best for your system (we're doing that next week.)

And finally, excuse us for changing up the You-Must-Upgrade-Every-Time-At-All-Cost-To-The-Universe-Shaking-New-Thing! narrative and saying what we really believe, based on lots of experimentation, "Once you're at this level of performance, there are flavors, and some flavors go better with certain preferences and systems."

Bottom line: could we do an "Analog 3" board and pimp it out as the best thing since sliced bread? Sure. But DACs don't need to change for the sake of change. Also, when you get to this level of performance, the changes are very rarely night and day. They're more flavors. So, out of a bunch of variations of Yggdrasil, we found a couple of flavors we felt were interesting. It's very possible most people will like Less is More, or More is Less, far better than Yggdrasil OG. But other people will still think OG is the best. Perhaps for the same reason "classic" components are rediscovered periodically. (Anyone out there hanging on to a Theta DAC, and still think it sounds better than the modern stuff? How about an ancient Class A amp? Tubes?)

Of course, perhaps we are incompetent. Perhaps every other manufacturer on the planet always has a clear win every time they decide to do an improved product, and the product is clearly better every time, and worth a significant price increase. That's entirely possible. I know I'm fallible. So maybe that's it.

You are excused. Any one can make a promise but it takes oh so much more to give your word...and keep it. I don't really know you and never will, but I would say you tend toward the latter. There are few things in this life that we can both give and keep. Our word is but one. Another would be our heart. Our love. Our faith. I would go on but some here would feel that I am being "political".

Nope. I am being who I am.

ORT

 

[bboris77]

Who said there wasn't an "A3" AD5791 board (that turned out to be one you don't want?)

FWIW, the standard Yggdrasil AD5791 boards are "2.01." The DAC8812 boards are "3.02". The DAC11001 boards are "7.03." I have boards sitting on the prototype shelf up to "10.1." There have been a ton of prototypes, including what you might consider to be "Analog 3." And the "improved" AD5791 board turned out to be, ah, not so "improved."

Proof of 10 Yggdrasil variants:



Excuse us for only producing the best-measuring multibit DAC as one of the options (More is Less).

Excuse us for reducing the cost of what most consider to be the best Yggdrasil option with 16-bit DACs (Less is More).

Excuse us for passing along price increases for the AD5791, which are almost all caused by significantly higher AD5791 and PCB prices, and is significantly less than inflation since the Yggdrasil's inception, while also including Unison USB and Analog 2.

Excuse us for planning a true double-blind listening test with multiple reviewers, to help you choose the Yggdrasil that's best for your system (we're doing that next week.)

And finally, excuse us for changing up the You-Must-Upgrade-Every-Time-At-All-Cost-To-The-Universe-Shaking-New-Thing! narrative and saying what we really believe, based on lots of experimentation, "Once you're at this level of performance, there are flavors, and some flavors go better with certain preferences and systems."

Bottom line: could we do an "Analog 3" board and pimp it out as the best thing since sliced bread? Sure. But DACs don't need to change for the sake of change. Also, when you get to this level of performance, the changes are very rarely night and day. They're more flavors. So, out of a bunch of variations of Yggdrasil, we found a couple of flavors we felt were interesting. It's very possible most people will like Less is More, or More is Less, far better than Yggdrasil OG. But other people will still think OG is the best. Perhaps for the same reason "classic" components are rediscovered periodically. (Anyone out there hanging on to a Theta DAC, and still think it sounds better than the modern stuff? How about an ancient Class A amp? Tubes?)

Of course, perhaps we are incompetent. Perhaps every other manufacturer on the planet always has a clear win every time they decide to do an improved product, and the product is clearly better every time, and worth a significant price increase. That's entirely possible. I know I'm fallible. So maybe that's it.

I think that some consumers have a problem with Schiit's approach because you guys simply refuse to fit into a very specific box when it comes to extolling the virtues of your (new) products compared to most other manufacturers. In other words, you do not provide a comfortable reassurance to this type of consumer that they will be guaranteed a 25% improvement to their level of enjoyment from the latest iteration of their favourite product. Some people need a promise from a manufacturer that the new product is absolutely and utterly superior to the now suddenly old/obsolete/redundant piece of Schiit they have. They do not want to discover the potential improvements for themselves - they simply want to be told it's better.

Oh well, you can't please everyone.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

I think that some consumers have a problem with Schiit's approach because you guys simply refuse to fit into a very specific box when it comes to extolling the virtues of your (new) products compared to most other manufacturers. In other words, you do not provide a comfortable reassurance to this type of consumer that they will be guaranteed a 25% improvement to their level of enjoyment from the latest iteration of their favourite product. Some people need that promise from a manufacturer that the new product is absolutely and utterly superior to the now suddenly old/obsolete/redundant piece of Schiit they have. They do not want to discover the potential improvements for themselves - they simply want to be told it's better.

Oh well, you can't please everyone.

There is no perfect product. From anyone. At any price. Ever.

Repeat that when the new model promises unicorns and rainbows (at only $4000 more than the old one.) And remember that mantra when, 10-20 years later, the community rediscovers the old one and promotes it as being better than all the new stuff that's available.

We have our fads and fashions, like everything else.

But we do keep trying to improve.

 

[JohnnyCanuck]

Some people need a promise from a manufacturer that the new product is absolutely and utterly superior to the now suddenly old/obsolete/redundant piece of Schiit they have. They do not want to discover the potential improvements for themselves - they simply want to be told it's better.

I think that if you drew a Venn diagram of those people and Schiit customers you would wind up with two distinct, separate circles.

JC

 

[Les Strat]

Deleted some political stuff too. Yes, political. No, I don't care what side you are on. Yes, I know it is a terrible thing that the other side is 100% wrong all the time and it's a big big problem that they're wrong on the internets!!!!

Me? I am on the side of "making audio gear" and "staying in operation."

Please leave politics out of this thread.

Thank you @Jason Stoddard
This thread is a welcome escape from opinionated 'experts' who cannot resist subjecting everyone else to their views on politics.
I am delighted that you want to keep this thread politics-free.
There is plenty of material to promote passionate, but respectful, debate on audio gear without the need to stray into political b******s

 

[US Blues]

Who said there wasn't an "A3" AD5791 board—that turned out to be one you don't want?

FWIW, the standard Yggdrasil AD5791 boards are "2.01." The DAC8812 boards are "3.02". The DAC11001 boards are "7.03." I have boards sitting on the prototype shelf up to "10.1." There have been a ton of prototypes, including what you might consider to be "Analog 3." And the "improved" AD5791 board turned out to be, ah, not so "improved."

Proof of 10 Yggdrasil variants:



Excuse us for only producing the best-measuring multibit DAC, like, ever, as one of the options (More is Less).

Excuse us for reducing the cost of what most consider to be the best Yggdrasil option with 16-bit DACs (Less is More).

Excuse us for passing along a price increase for the OG, which is caused by significantly higher AD5791 and PCB prices, and is less than inflation since the Yggdrasil's inception, while also including Unison USB and Analog 2.

Excuse us for planning a true double-blind listening test with multiple reviewers, to help you choose the Yggdrasil that's best for your system (we're doing that next week.)

And finally, excuse us for changing up the You-Must-Upgrade-Every-Time-At-All-Cost-To-The-Universe-Shaking-New-Thing! narrative and saying what we really believe, based on lots of experimentation, "Once you're at this level of performance, there are flavors, and some flavors go better with certain preferences and systems."

Bottom line: could we do an "Analog 3" board and pimp it out as the best thing since sliced bread? Sure. But DACs don't need to change for the sake of change. Also, when you get to this level of performance, the changes are very rarely night and day. They're more flavors. So, out of a bunch of variations of Yggdrasil, we found a couple of flavors we felt were interesting. It's very possible most people will like Less is More, or More is Less, far better than Yggdrasil OG. But other people will still think OG is the best. Perhaps for the same reason "classic" components are rediscovered periodically. (Anyone out there hanging on to a Theta DAC, and still think it sounds better than the modern stuff? How about an ancient Class A amp? Tubes?)

Of course, perhaps we are incompetent. Perhaps every other manufacturer on the planet always has a clear win every time they decide to do an improved product, and the product is clearly better every time, and worth a significant price increase. That's entirely possible. I know I'm fallible. So maybe that's it.

Jason knows how to wield a hammer. Bravo!

 

[Author]

Who said there wasn't an "A3" AD5791 board—that turned out to be one you don't want?

FWIW, the standard Yggdrasil AD5791 boards are "2.01." The DAC8812 boards are "3.02". The DAC11001 boards are "7.03." I have boards sitting on the prototype shelf up to "10.1." There have been a ton of prototypes, including what you might consider to be "Analog 3." And the "improved" AD5791 board turned out to be, ah, not so "improved."

Proof of 10 Yggdrasil variants:



Excuse us for only producing the best-measuring multibit DAC, like, ever, as one of the options (More is Less).

Excuse us for reducing the cost of what most consider to be the best Yggdrasil option with 16-bit DACs (Less is More).

Excuse us for passing along a price increase for the OG, which is caused by significantly higher AD5791 and PCB prices, and is less than inflation since the Yggdrasil's inception, while also including Unison USB and Analog 2.

Excuse us for planning a true double-blind listening test with multiple reviewers, to help you choose the Yggdrasil that's best for your system (we're doing that next week.)

And finally, excuse us for changing up the You-Must-Upgrade-Every-Time-At-All-Cost-To-The-Universe-Shaking-New-Thing! narrative and saying what we really believe, based on lots of experimentation, "Once you're at this level of performance, there are flavors, and some flavors go better with certain preferences and systems."

Bottom line: could we do an "Analog 3" board and pimp it out as the best thing since sliced bread? Sure. But DACs don't need to change for the sake of change. Also, when you get to this level of performance, the changes are very rarely night and day. They're more flavors. So, out of a bunch of variations of Yggdrasil, we found a couple of flavors we felt were interesting. It's very possible most people will like Less is More, or More is Less, far better than Yggdrasil OG. But other people will still think OG is the best. Perhaps for the same reason "classic" components are rediscovered periodically. (Anyone out there hanging on to a Theta DAC, and still think it sounds better than the modern stuff? How about an ancient Class A amp? Tubes?)

Of course, perhaps we are incompetent. Perhaps every other manufacturer on the planet always has a clear win every time they decide to do an improved product, and the product is clearly better every time, and worth a significant price increase. That's entirely possible. I know I'm fallible. So maybe that's it.

Thank you Jason. I needed this today for reasons that are difficult to articulate. Also: Happy Birthday To Me. So I’ll count this as a bit of a birthday present as well.

 

[Rensek]

This is interesting because in the Rag 2 chapter Jason said they could not find a toroidal that would work, so he designed the transformer in the sealed box and had to redesign the chassis to make it fit. I wonder if they just found a toroidal that wasn‘t available back then and maybe it’s less expensive or easier to assemble than the boxed solution. I don’t have a problem with noise floor with any of the headphones I use, but the transformer hum is pretty loud when you‘re sitting near it.

I am fortunate then, my ragnarok 2 is quiet as a mouse, as is bifrost 2.

 

[Ableza]

WARNING! CABLE COMMENT FOLLOWS!! PREPARE YOUR HIGH-END CABLE RELIGION SHIELDS FOR IMPACT!

Back when I was working in the audio testing and certification industry I had many opportunities to test and evaluate high-end cables from nearly every manufacturer including many of the mega-dollar per foot name brands. I was never able to measure nor hear any significant "improvements" from any of these cables over that provided by the lab-standard cables we made ourselves from reels of bulk Belden and Carol cable, using basic bulk connectors (usually not even gold-plated!) No matter the signal path or what was used to get input to output (even routing through patch bays and (egad) ICs running in parallel with power cables) as long as signal out = signal in, with acceptable losses, it was all the same. Indeed I was surprised when some of the mega-dollar cables we tested actually degraded the signal in significant ways, such as severe attenuation or even adding phase distortion due to cable impedance.

So here I am at least 30 years distant from that work experience and I was given a set of multi-thousand-dollar XLR interconnects made by a high-end manufacturer and touting exotic gold-plated silver coax conductors and exotic monocrystalline polymer insulation, with rhodium-plated phosphor-bronze connectors and mysterious ferrite filters encased in plastic. These promised to bring out the "magic" in the sound - and were sent to me from a friend who is a high-end audio dealer in the New York City area with a note reading, in effect, "Try these, you damn cable skeptic." So I did.

I inserted them between my Yggdrasil and my AudioValve Solaris amplifier. I let the amp warm up then put on my Voce electrostatic headphones and fired up some Van Morison. I expected magic. I got none. I could hear no difference between these ICs and the sub-$100 set made from basic copper I had been using before. Maybe it's my near-70 year-old ears, maybe it's my bias, maybe I used the "wrong music", maybe it's the phase of the moon. But there was no big "wow" moment. Not even a little "wow." It was a complete and solid "meh."

I share this story not because I'm trying to stir Schiit on this forum, but because hopefully it might help someone else realize that there are more important parts of the audio chain to spend your money on than cables. Like transducers, amps, and DACs. But like I always say, "Dowhatchulike" and if you want it go for it. Just don't expect to be blown away by veils being lifted and unicorns appearing from the ether. Just enjoy the music.

 

[ev666il]

and mysterious ferrite filters encased in plastic.

I think I know what brand that is.

One could say you’ve quite literally seen through them.

 

[bboris77]

There is no perfect product. From anyone. At any price. Ever.

Repeat that when the new model promises unicorns and rainbows (at only $4000 more than the old one.) And remember that mantra when, 10-20 years later, the community rediscovers the old one and promotes it as being better than all the new stuff that's available.

We have our fads and fashions, like everything else.

But we do keep trying to improve.

Jason, it’s really not my style to publicly praise people and companies, but I have to make an exception in this case. Your messaging as a company has been extremely consistent and reality-based since I ordered my first Schiit product in 2015.

It was the original Vali and even before I received it, I had read on your website and here about the high background hiss and microphonic tubes. Despite its shortcomings, I still regret selling it which is how I have felt every time I sold off one of your products in my own pursuit of "unicorns and rainbows."

My point is that you guys have always been honest about your products' downsides and very humble about their benefits and sonic advantages. You have been providing a fantastic entry point for audiophiles for a while now and your mid-tier and endgame products are very reasonably priced compared to your competition.

One of your statements that has stuck with me, and illustrates your realistic and honest approach in providing advice to people starting in this hobby, is: "The differences between electronics are relatively small. As we've always said, start with your transducer, then go for electronics--transducers will make the biggest differences."

The fact that the above statement is a) true b) coming from a company that is making neither headphones nor speakers is fairly self-explanatory.

All I can say is keep up your amazing work! I am very happy to back to enjoying your products (Bifrost 2/Jot 2).