[watchnerd]

 
If you're spinning vinyl, your phono preamp would be putting out much less voltage than a DAC or CDP. I have two turntable set ups, the one puts out 0.60V & the other 0.88V. With my amp that has 0.89 volts sensitivity, they both sound good with a passive pre. With my other amp and it's 1.9 volts input sensitivity, the lower output phono set up sounds a bit anemic going passive. My DAC with 2.06V sounds good with either amp.

 
Sounds like you have turntables with built-in phono stages?
 
My standalone phono stage outputs 2V just fine.

 

[Baldr]

But wouldn't there also be benefits to the design on - in this case - the amp side, if you could assume - say - "line level" had a standard value and tolerance?

Just like - say - designing a DAC might be difficult if there were no standardized SPDIF, Toslink or USB standards. (Had to throw in USB there even though I know from the book how you feel about USB )
 

 
Since "line levels" vary by 6db or less, as they have over the last 80 ears or so, it is a trivial engineering problem to accommodate in the design of all downstream equipment.  S/PDIF, TOS, and USB are signal socket products which were decided and implemented by the markets in which those products are sold.  This range of levels are determined by the market.
 
Much of ISO mandates are manufacturing specifications/standards dictated by people who have never manufactured anything.  Responsible manufacturers manufacture to the reliability, suitability, and price their markets require.  As soon as I surrender my standards to some "Badge" to pin on my manufacturing, I begin to also surrender my own manufacturing reliability, suitability, and pricing to some panel of suits who do not give one Schiit about my clients.
 
Finally, I did a quick, "mental masturbation" exercise in Bills of Materials which reveals that a 2V output Modi 2 would cost $140 and a 2V output Modi 2 Uber would be $190.  Is that what is wanted?  Really?
 
Thanks for the discourse.  Makes me think about stuff other than products.  No Schiit.

 

[mattlach]

   
Since "line levels" vary by 6db or less, as they have over the last 80 ears or so, it is a trivial engineering problem to accommodate in the design of all downstream equipment.  S/PDIF, TOS, and USB are signal socket products which were decided and implemented by the markets in which those products are sold.  This range of levels are determined by the market.
 
Much of ISO mandates are manufacturing specifications/standards dictated by people who have never manufactured anything.  Responsible manufacturers manufacture to the reliability, suitability, and price their markets require.  As soon as I surrender my standards to some "Badge" to pin on my manufacturing, I begin to also surrender my own manufacturing reliability, suitability, and pricing to some panel of suits who do not give one Schiit about my clients.
 
Finally, I did a quick, "mental masturbation" exercise in Bills of Materials which reveals that a 2V output Modi 2 would cost $140 and a 2V output Modi 2 Uber would be $190.  Is that what is wanted?  Really?
 
Thanks for the discourse.  Makes me think about stuff other than products.  No Schiit.

 
 
Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good tradeoff for Modi.  Goes to show standardization isn't always the way, but I do still think it has merit in many circumstances.
 
As for ISO9001 and the likes, I think they have some merit in the business to business realm.  If you primarily sell to other businesses, letting them know that you have a standardized approach has some value.  I think it can also be useful to help manage an organization as it grows large.  QMS systems also have lots of value if you are producing products in an industry which is regulated where products can and do kill people.
 
For a smaller organization selling non-hazardous products primarily to consumers, I would agree with you completely.  ISO based manufacturing quality systems make very little sense.   They would generally just add a lot of bureaucracy to little benefit.
 
It's a moot discussion though.  In my industry, when FDA comes knocking, you had better hope you can show them a compliant QMS system or you are in for a world of hurt, up to and including chains on the door, everyone sent home, and management walked out in cuffs
 
I will take some exception to the comment that these people "have never manufactured anything" though.  I've known some brilliant people on ANSI, ASTM, ISTA and ISO committees and boards who have decades of manufacturing experience (though granted generally in large company settings), and the standards committee's almost always seek industry feedback before they are finalized.

 

[bigro]

Fair enough, I appreciate your take on it!

I work as a Quality Engineer in an industry highly regulated by ISO-like standards and I know first hand how they can be a pain, but I've also found that they can pay off!

But wouldn't there also be benefits to the design on - in this case - the amp side, if you could assume - say - "line level" had a standard value and tolerance?

Just like - say - designing a DAC might be difficult if there were no standardized SPDIF, Toslink or USB standards. (Had to throw in USB there even though I know from the book how you feel about USB )

Im honestly seeking your opinion to help me learn, not trying to argue a point.

 
 
There are some Standards for SE and Balanced. Connections are somewhat standard and Voltage Ranges. Toslink has Standards but Still has issues for example some may not work with 24/192.
 
It has been years since I did any of this theory (correct me if I am wrong) In the analog lines The Voltage is is Fluctuating so the 1.5 or 2.0 V is measured in RMS. But the voltage changes and will go as low as is .01 Volts at any given point based on signal and attenuation from your volume control. The Higher the RMS Voltage just translates to getting a more power into your amplifier as the amplifier will just amplify the incoming signal.  This difference in voltage does not exactly translate to better performance(unless you have long cable runs). If your amp has enough headroom the difference in voltage should not make any difference except for where your volume knob is.

 

[33na3rd]

   
Sounds like you have turntables with built-in phono stages?
 
My standalone phono stage outputs 2V just fine.
 
 

 
No, one old (1991) Muse Model One that I'm using the phono section of, and a current model Avid Pellar.
 
My Grace F9E (3.5mV) is feed to an Avid Pellar using the 48dB setting, outputting .88 volts.
 
My Paradox bodied Shure SC35C/N35X (6mV) is feed to the phono section of a Muse Model One at approximately 40dB, outputting .6 volts.
 
I could adjust the Avid to put out closer to 2 volts, but the sound gets a bit grainy at higher gain settings.
 
I'm still guessing that most cartridge/phono unit set ups are putting out less than the 2 volt CDP standard. I do know there are some notable exceptions, and that the Mani can be adjusted for high output as well.

 

[valiant66]

As an owner of vintage British iron (Quad 405) I have spent more time than is healthy reading old reviews (sometimes when they were new of gear, and for a while there was a tendency to note that interfacing British hi-fi with American hi-fi came with some caveats: to whit, the average output voltage of British gear was 1V, the expected input voltage of US gear was 2V, and if you used a British preamp with an American poweramp, you would not be able to take advantage of the full range of power available to you. Lots of reviews had little notes along the lines of "be sure and get your dealer to adjust the output/input voltages accordingly."
 
Yep: I just went and checked. Naim still uses DIN inputs and outputs rather than RCA, and the output voltage of their NAC 252 preamp is listed as 775 mV, or 0.775 V. No problem if you're staying within the Naim ecosystem, but an issue if you're trying to drive some big 'Murican iron.

 

[mattlach]

Yep: I just went and checked. Naim still uses DIN inputs and outputs rather than RCA, and the output voltage of their NAC 252 preamp is listed as 775 mV, or 0.775 V. No problem if you're staying within the Naim ecosystem, but an issue if you're trying to drive some big 'Murican iron.

Well that's nothing a powered preamp can't solve though, right?

(Having now understood the differences in applications both current and historical, and now grasping the need for preamps.)

 

[valiant66]

Well that's nothing a powered preamp can't solve though, right?

(Having now understood the differences in applications both current and historical, and now grasping the need for preamps.)

 
Well, yes and no. The Naim IS a powered preamp https://www.naimaudio.com/product/nac-252. 6 inputs, mono switch, tape loops, the whole business. It's roughly the middle of their preamp range, at an eye-wateringly expensive £6,130 MSRP (about US$7,770).
 
The difficulty is that the UK standards/averages are different from the US ones. If your preamp puts out a max 1 V and your power amp expects a max 1 V input, no problem. So UK hi-fi brands interacts with each other just fine (please note, I am SUPER over-simplifying here: the world market has changed things quite a bit since the old days, and Naim is a stubborn hold out - think Rolls Royce: old tech, wrong hand drive, underpowered for the price, but extra luxurious and owners are willing to put up with eccentricities for other reasons).
 
As long as you are connecting a tangerine to a tangerine you're fine, but if you connect a tangerine to a pomelo, you don't necessarily end up with a tangelo.
 
Connecting a preamp that puts out 1 V to a power amp that expect 2 V just means that it won't go as loud, and the preamp may run a little hotter than otherwise because you've got the volume control turned up a little further. Here's another oversimplification: If your preamp puts out 2 V and your comfortable listening level is with the volume at 12 o'clock, replacing it with a preamp that puts out 1 V means your comfortable level would be at 2 or 3 o'clock. Not usually a problem, but you're pushing the preamp a little hard, and reducing your available headroom. The reverse is true too - running a preamp that pushed out 2 V into a poweramp that expected 1 V means running your volume at 9 or 10 o'clock, and if you turned the volume control over too far you could blow things up.
 
It used to be a problem because the UK produced low-power amps (30-odd W) and inefficient speakers (think LS3/5A's). In that case having a mismatch could have audible consequences. With today's tendency towards more powerful amps and more efficient speakers, it's less of a problem.
 
Baldr said the Modi puts out 1.5 V. That would mean (continuing to oversimplify) you would run your volume control at 1/1:30 instead of noon. Not a big difference. And if you're running it into a headphone amp it's no problem at all. If you're plugging it into a passive preamp like Saga that's plenty of voltage to pass on to the power amp. If you're plugging it into a powered preamp, even less trouble.
 
But getting back to the Naim, it has an input sensitivity of 75 mV. Feeding it 1.5 V might overload things a bit...
.

 

[AMRoberts]

(Having now understood the differences in applications both current and historical, and now grasping the need for preamps.)

 
Glance back at the numbers from my reply, and you'll see that even the (lower maximum output voltage) Modi 2 and 2 Uber could drive my power amplifier to very high output levels (a bit less than 4dB down from max rated output) if it was directly connected.  Not a place I want to be in my small listening space with reasonably efficient speakers, for the sake of my hearing and life of my speakers.  Too close to thermal shutdown, perhaps too close to the point where the amplifier would clip ... Pick any additional evil(s) for the list, remembering that your speakers are not a constant, non-reactive load.
 
My preamp is buffering and attenuating the signal from my DAC, along with providing switching between my sources.  If my system was only a Modi 2, power amp, and speakers, I could choose a passive preamp for switching and attenuation.
 

Well that's [Valiant66's vintage gear] nothing a powered preamp can't solve though, right?

 
If the powered preamp (or additional one, since I think Valiant66 was referring to a preamp) provides gain.  It is possible to have a powered preamp which does not provide gain, see the gain specification on http://schiit.com/products/saga for example.    More to the point if he needed to at all.  Unless Valiant66 needed to drive the hypothetical "big 'Murican iron" (power amp) to its maximum output power, the output range up to 775mV might give him all the volume he wants.

 

[monkuboy]

I do read. Owner's manual doesn't say that the remote is in the box. Just one saga, one power cord, and zero stick on feet.

 
My Saga came with stick-on feet in addition to the already stuck-on feet. I feel special. 

 

[valiant66]

P.S. Professional gear usually has a volume control (a "pad") on each channel so you can match inputs with varying gear - that way switching between inputs doesn't result in wildly different volumes. Think going from a CD player putting out 2V to a turntable putting out less than 1 - you can balance them so they're the same relative volume. Home audio gear generally doesn't do that.

 

[monkuboy]

   
Given that there is no voltage gain in the SAGA, it's not surprising that you don't hear any increase in loudness.

I hear a definite volume increase when in active mode versus passive mode.  Maybe it depends on the impedence of the amplifier?  I am using it with a Bob Latino ST-120.
 
The clicks on the remote are audible across the room but it doesn't bother me. I need to get used to it, though, because I keep listening for the clicks to confirm another step up in volume, but when the music gets to a certain level I can't hear the clicks anymore. I found myself pressing the button to hear the clicks and the music just got really loud! I have to learn to trust that when I press the button, the relay responds each and every time. 

 

[mattlach]

   
My Saga came with stick-on feet in addition to the already stuck-on feet. I feel special. 

 
You should rename it from Saga to Sleipnir, Odin's eight legged horse.
 
Actually, come to think of it, if they made a larger pre-amp with 8 inputs instead of the 5(?, didnt look at spec) of Saga, Sleipnir would be a great name

 

[mattlach]

   
Well, yes and no. The Naim IS a powered preamp...
 
<snip>

 

   
Glance back at the numbers from my reply, and you'll see that even the (lower maximum output voltage) Modi 2 and 2 Uber could drive my power amplifier to very high output levels...
 
<snip>

 
 
Thanks to you both, this makes perfect sense.  I'm doing a lot of learning in here!
 
My entry into the audiophile world is relatively recent, and I've actually never owned a standalone amp/speaker stereo.   I came of age in the early digital era, and prior to my Asgard my journey into audio started when I first bought my Sound Blaster Pro in the early 90's to which I either connected ****ty low powered active computer speakers, or cheap commodity headphones plugged directly into the sound card, or my off-brand portable 90's CD player.  (well, portable was a joke, because you couldn't move with it without it skipping...)
 
I've never owned a record player or vinyl records.  In fact they always used to scare me as I've never had steady hands, and having to carefully lower the needle onto the record without scratching it was terrifying to me.
 
My first sort-of decent sound came with a set of Sony MDR CD250 headphones in the mid to late 90's some time.  They had been a gift someone gave to my dad, but he hadn't used them even once, and had no interest in them, so he let me use them, and at some point they essentially became mine.
 
After heavy use for many years in 2009 these things were literally falling apart  (and I mean the actual literally, not meaning figuratively as the kids use it today).  Not knowing a thing about headphones, I did some googling, joined head-fi and asked for recommendations.  A few recommendations and some arguing by members ensued, and in the end due to a great price on eBay I wound up with a set of 80ohm Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro's.  Once I got them I had that stereotypical "I just removed the cotton balls from my ears" experience, even though I was only running them from the 3.5mm jack on my laptop.   It was recommended to me pretty early on that I would benefit from an amp, but it took me 2 and a half years before I broke down the resistance to spend $250 on one of the first gen Schiit Asgards in November 2011.  (I was order number 500-something!).   I grew up in a household with with strong sentiments of "you only buy things you absolutely need, never fall for the trick of brand names, cheap no-names are always the way to go, never indulge yourself" etc, so I've always had guilt associated with buying things like $250 amps, even though I have no problem affording them...
 
Anyway, repeat the "cotton ball" experience, and I was loving it.  I had always planned on picking up a Bifrost to pair with it (working up to that money spending guilt thing), but never got around to it. Life got busy, lots of work, marriage, divorce, I didn't pay much attention to audio stuff for a long time, until less than two months ago when after modding my computer with a water cooling system, (my office gets hot in the summer, and the fan noise was driving me batty) the electrical pump noise making its way through the internal sound card I'd been using with the Asgard (a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD) just became unbearable, and I decided it was time for an external DAC.   Having been very happy with my Asgard, I really went straight to Schiit, and after some research Modi Multibit  seemed like an amazing value. I didn't know what Multibit was, but Bifrost Multibit level sound quality at $250 sounded almost too good to be true.
 
Once I got it I fell in love with my music all over again, and I started researching headphone upgrades.  My old 80ohm beyerdynamics had been sat on by someone who shall remain nameless, and were wrecked and taped together, so first I ordered a replacement set (but this time the 250 Ohm versions). I also found (and just barely) got in on the Massdrop Senheiser HD6xx drop, so I have those coming soon.    Then I decided I wanted a better amp for the Sennheisers, so I ordered a Lyr 2 from Schiit.  I also bought a new Modi 2 Uber and gave my Asgard to my Fiance.  I asked her what headphones she liked, and she said she liked mine, so she got a pair of 250ohm Beyer 770pro's as well. The Lyr 2 sound was amazing, but I went down a total rabbit hole when it came to tube rolling, and I could tell it was about to become a stupid obsession, and that I would never be satisfied and continue spending money on rare NOS tubes from the 50's through the 70's for the rest of my life, so I decided it wasn't for me, and to return it under Schiits 15 day plan.  I should be getting my replacement Jotunheim (no DAC board, as I will be using the Modi Multibit) tomorrow according to the tracking info and I am excited to hear it after all the good things I've heard.
 
I've also already ordered the cables both to make my own Sennheiser balanced cable (no way I'm spending audio-jewelry prices for cables) and I'm even going to try to convert my beyerdynamics to a balanced set.
 
So anyway, wow, what a diversion.   This started as just an explanation of why I was lacking in knowledge and thankful for your explanations, and turned into my total audio hardware history, which I'm sure no one is interested in, but hey, it's typed.  I might as well hit submit.
 
So, TLDR version.   I know less than most people on here, as I have a very limited audiophile background.  Thanks for explaining the stuff to me, I really appreciate it.

 

[valiant66]

My preamp is buffering and attenuating the signal from my DAC, along with providing switching between my sources.  If my system was only a Modi 2, power amp, and speakers, I could choose a passive preamp for switching and attenuation.

 
Most modern gear puts out adequate voltage to drive a power amp to painful or dangerous levels. An attenuator is all you generally need - the necessity is to turn it down, not up.
 
The exception is turntables and low-output moving-coil cartridges. But a competent (or great - think Mani) phono preamp will take those low signal levels and ramp them up as necessary. In the old days, you might need a step-up transformer to get your low-output cartridge to play nice with your preamp.
 

  If the powered preamp (or additional one, since I think Valiant66 was referring to a preamp) provides gain.  It is possible to have a powered preamp which does not provide gain, see the gain specification on http://schiit.com/products/saga for example.    More to the point if he needed to at all.  Unless Valiant66 needed to drive the hypothetical "big 'Murican iron" (power amp) to its maximum output power, the output range up to 775mV might give him all the volume he wants.

 
Yep: running a preamp at 2 o'clock instead of noon is not a big problem. These days, we don't need gain. In my setup, I'm normally running closer to 9 or 10 o'clock. I don't need gain, I only need attenuation. In fact, I often use a passive preamp (Adcom SLC 505) when I feel like messing about with different power amps. With most modern gear putting out adequate voltage, most people don't need active preamps at all, except for the convenience of remote control. Gain was necessary for dealing with low signals from turntables and occasionally tuners.
 
You will find endless screeds online singing the praises of passive preamps versus active (powered) ones. Here's one where Stereophile reviews a powered/passive preamp (rather like the Saga or Freya) and the reviewer drools over it in passive mode:
 

Adcom's GFP-750 is a remarkable preamplifier. It's well-built and elegantly designed—on the inside, where it counts. I've gone just gaga over it, not simply because it performs well for the money, but because it begs comparison with the best preamplifiers I've ever heard. Period.

 
He compares a $1,200 passive preamp favourably with a $6,500 Mark Levinson.
 

The two had similarly open, grainless characters. In direct comparisons I had an extremely difficult time discerning differences between them—and that was a sighted comparison!

 
So these days we don't really need to worry about relative voltages that much.
 
I think this sidebar started when someone was wondering about relative volumes and what was best for the lowest noise floor if you were running a variable out source into a variable level preamp into a power amp with a volume control. If you're counting, that's three places to control the volume.
 
My credo is "First, do no harm." You can't, of course, when dealing with audio, so you have to revise that to "Do the least harm." For me, I would say try and have only one attenuator in the signal chain. Every time you run the signal through another volume control, you add inaccuracies (distortion). So a fixed output source that goes into a preamp with volume control and on to a power amp with fixed input level will give you the best possible sound quality in that chain.
 
If you only have one source, and it has a physical (not digital) volume control, then running that directly into a power amp simplifies the signal chain even more. But we're dealing with the whys and wherefores of a preamp here: and besides, most DACs don't have physical volume controls, they do it in the digital domain. (An exception: Fulla.)
 
Worrying about relative voltage levels when dealing with our Schiit is not really necessary - I doubt if many people on this forum are using quirky European gear.
 
My guess would be that for a SE rig, taking the output from any of the Schiit multibit DACs (adding a Mani if you play LPs), running it into a Saga in passive mode, and using a Vidar (or Emotiva or Outlaw or whatever) to power your speakers would get you near to end-game performance. Multibit to get the most out of your digital source, passive attenuation to do the least harm to your signal, and a decent amp to run your speakers. The place for improvement in that chain starts with the speakers and stops with the power amp: no real need to improve the source or preamp.
 
For fans of a balanced signal, a Gumby or Yggy into a Freya and on to a pair of Vidars (or equivalent balanced power amp) will do the same thing.
.