[painted klown]

Please don't get me wrong everybody. My rant about vinyl was merely the cost associated with having a nicer table and a well curated analog library. If I were to win the lotto tomorrow, you 'betcha I'd have a nice table and all the records I can only drool over now.

 
Growing up, I listened to vinyl and 8-track tapes, then moved to cassettes (anybody else miss cassettes?) and finally moved to CD. I agree with Madwolfa that the mastering jobs for vinyl are generally superior to those for CD, and I personally blame that on the loudness wars. In fact, I feel (and I could be wrong) that part of the vinyl resurgence is in response to the loudness wars. When the vinyl isn't compressed and brick-walled to the point of horrible audible distortion, and the digital version is...well, there's no question about which one to buy, if the cost is not a factor.
 
I wish that mastering engineers took pride in their work and mastered for digital with love, care, and appreciation for the content. There are a LOT of modern recordings that have GREAT content, but are rendered nearly un-listenable, due to all of the audible distortion. It's sad really, especially for a music lover (aren't we all?) who happens to notice all of the distortion and digital artifacts brought about by poor mastering. I always wonder why the artists themselves don't backlash against the labels for ruining their hard work!
 
Viva la analog...and well mastered digital!

 

[watchnerd]

 
 
I wish that mastering engineers took pride in their work and mastered for digital with love, care, and appreciation for the content. There are a LOT of modern recordings that have GREAT content, but are rendered nearly un-listenable, due to all of the audible distortion. It's sad really, especially for a music lover (aren't we all?) who happens to notice all of the distortion and digital artifacts brought about by poor mastering. I always wonder why the artists themselves don't backlash against the labels for ruining their hard work!
 
Viva la analog...and well mastered digital!

 
Disclosure: as a hobby, I volunteer as an audio engineer assistant for a local symphony and jazz venue, so a lot of this comes from shop talk I've heard amongst AES guys.
 
The mastering engineers are doing what they're paid to do (you do what the client/label wants), whether they like it or not, and a lot of the loudness wars is now driven by the perceived market needs of streaming and mobile.
 
The logic is not entirely without merit:  popular streaming devices like the Sonos Play 1 don't have a huge dynamic range to work with.  Mobile devices are even worse. The 'casual' consumers are assumed to be unable to discern/care about the difference (in part due to the playback equipment).
 

 
(Loudness range units for different playback mediums; mobile is in the 6-8 LRA range).
 
However, the AES just recently (October, 2015) released guidelines on how to be smarter about optimizing for streaming/mobile so hopefully things will get a bit better, although 'mobile first' will likely still remain the philosophy.
 
Interestingly, the full dynamic range version isn't just used for vinyl, but also for high resolution (24bit), too.  This provides a marketing segmentation / differentiation that allows high resolution to sound better (and thus justify a higher price) by, basically, making the Redbook version sound worse than potential.

 

[1adam12]

Sad day. I just upgraded to a moving coil phono cartridge and I think my Mani isn't supplying enough gain. I have to crank my Ragnarok to 3 o'clock to get a decent loudness.
 
So count me in if Mani Uber ever happens.

 

[B-60]

  Please don't get me wrong everybody. My rant about vinyl was merely the cost associated with having a nicer table and a well curated analog library. If I were to win the lotto tomorrow, you 'betcha I'd have a nice table and all the records I can only drool over now.

 
Growing up, I listened to vinyl and 8-track tapes, then moved to cassettes (anybody else miss cassettes?) and finally moved to CD. I agree with Madwolfa that the mastering jobs for vinyl are generally superior to those for CD, and I personally blame that on the loudness wars. In fact, I feel (and I could be wrong) that part of the vinyl resurgence is in response to the loudness wars. When the vinyl isn't compressed and brick-walled to the point of horrible audible distortion, and the digital version is...well, there's no question about which one to buy, if the cost is not a factor.
 
I wish that mastering engineers took pride in their work and mastered for digital with love, care, and appreciation for the content. There are a LOT of modern recordings that have GREAT content, but are rendered nearly un-listenable, due to all of the audible distortion. It's sad really, especially for a music lover (aren't we all?) who happens to notice all of the distortion and digital artifacts brought about by poor mastering. I always wonder why the artists themselves don't backlash against the labels for ruining their hard work!
 
Viva la analog...and well mastered digital!

Long live the vinyl......How is your Vali 2 amp?

 

[B-60]

  Sad day. I just upgraded to a moving coil phono cartridge and I think my Mani isn't supplying enough gain. I have to crank my Ragnarok to 3 o'clock to get a decent loudness.
 
So count me in if Mani Uber ever happens.

Hi,
Can you let me know what cart and the output on it?
Cheers

 

[1adam12]

  Hi,
Can you let me know what cart and the output on it?
Cheers

It's an Ortofon Quintet Black, which, from what I'm reading, has an output voltage of 0.3mv.

 

[B-60]

 
It's an Ortofon Quintet Black, which, from what I'm reading, has an output voltage of 0.3mv.

Yes ,as I suspected it is very low output cart and looks like Mani do not like that.
IMPO you should match Mani with medium output MC cart.Anything over 0.9mv will do.
Cheers

 

[jimmers]

 
The logic is not entirely without merit:  popular streaming devices like the Sonos Play 1 don't have a huge dynamic range to work with.  Mobile devices are even worse. The 'casual' consumers are assumed to be unable to discern/care about the difference (in part due to the playback equipment).

I think there are two types of "Dynamic Range" talked about, one relates to the equipment and simplistically is the highest level compared to the lowest level, and the Dynamic Range Database  type where the highest is compared to the average for the louder parts of the recording.
 
Quote:

 
Interestingly, the full dynamic range version isn't just used for vinyl, but also for high resolution (24bit), too.  This provides a marketing segmentation / differentiation that allows high resolution to sound better (and thus justify a higher price) by, basically, making the Redbook version sound worse than potential.

Unfortunately some High Res downloads are based on "remasters" that don't even have the dynamic range of the original.16/44.1 mastering.

 

[watchnerd]

I think there are two types of "Dynamic Range" talked about, one relates to the equipment and simplistically is the highest level compared to the lowest level, and the Dynamic Range Database  type where the highest is compared to the average for the louder parts of the recording.

 
The two are inter-related: the reason the recordings are mastered to have a restricted dynamic range is because of the belief that the devices (mobile) that are popular for playback don't support a high dynamic range.
 
Think of it this way: a full dynamic range recording, played back on a poor dynamic range device, will lead the listener to crank up the volume because it's "too soft", which, when a loud part hits, will lead to clipping and distortion (because the gain is already near max on a device with little headroom), which sounds bad.
 
The belief is that by compressing the dynamic range it's easier for the user to manage volume and keep it in a range that sounds okay.
 
The recent AES paper on loudness explains in more detail.

 

[painted klown]

   
Disclosure: as a hobby, I volunteer as an audio engineer assistant for a local symphony and jazz venue, so a lot of this comes from shop talk I've heard amongst AES guys.
 
The mastering engineers are doing what they're paid to do (you do what the client/label wants), whether they like it or not, and a lot of the loudness wars is now driven by the perceived market needs of streaming and mobile.
 
The logic is not entirely without merit:  popular streaming devices like the Sonos Play 1 don't have a huge dynamic range to work with.  Mobile devices are even worse. The 'casual' consumers are assumed to be unable to discern/care about the difference (in part due to the playback equipment).
 

 
(Loudness range units for different playback mediums; mobile is in the 6-8 LRA range).
 
However, the AES just recently (October, 2015) released guidelines on how to be smarter about optimizing for streaming/mobile so hopefully things will get a bit better, although 'mobile first' will likely still remain the philosophy.
 
Interestingly, the full dynamic range version isn't just used for vinyl, but also for high resolution (24bit), too.  This provides a marketing segmentation / differentiation that allows high resolution to sound better (and thus justify a higher price) by, basically, making the Redbook version sound worse than potential.

Thanks for the info watchnerd.
 
Not being an insider at all, I wonder how much control the artists themselves have over the process. I am aware that a lot of mastering engineers are probably just doing what they are told, so they can earn a paycheck and not lose their job, but it's still disheartening IMO.
 
In fact, Bob Ludwig, who remastered Nivana's "Nevermind" record for the 20th anniversary release defended his loud mastering job on Twitter.
 
https://jgtwo.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/the-guy-who-remastered-nevermind-doesnt-care-if-you-think-its-too-loud/

  Long live the vinyl......How is your Vali 2 amp?

I am loving it. I love it even more than I expected to when I ordered it up, so that's a win in my book!

 

  Unfortunately some High Res downloads are based on "remasters" that don't even have the dynamic range of the original.16/44.1 mastering.

This is true and the loudness wars website proves this. I wish all high res (at least) were well mastered, but even that isn't the case.

 

   
The two are inter-related: the reason the recordings are mastered to have a restricted dynamic range is because of the belief that the devices (mobile) that are popular for playback don't support a high dynamic range.
 
Think of it this way: a full dynamic range recording, played back on a poor dynamic range device, will lead the listener to crank up the volume because it's "too soft", which, when a loud part hits, will lead to clipping and distortion (because the gain is already near max on a device with little headroom), which sounds bad.
 
The belief is that by compressing the dynamic range it's easier for the user to manage volume and keep it in a range that sounds okay.
 
The recent AES paper on loudness explains in more detail.

This makes sense, and thank you for the follow up. I just with the labels didn't want to cater to the lowest common denominator. That leaves the rest of us with the horrid distortion and unhappy purchases. Heck, I still buy physical copies of the stuff I own, just so I don't have it compressed even more by low bit rate mp3's or aac's.

 

[AudioBear]

Compression is particularly useful for commuters.  A car traveling at 62.5 mph (100 kph) creates a noise floor of 65-70 dB.  Buses, trains and subways can be even louder.  That doesn't leave much dynamic range before excessively high noise levels are reached.  It's also a good reason to wear closed headphones with active noise reduction, IEMs or ear plugs--of course you can't do this if you are driving.  There is justification for compressing the dynamic range to 20-30 dB for some users (eg.  those who are in noisy places).  The average level in a home is around 50dB which also doesn't leave room for a lot of dynamic range.  There are very few places where one could really utilize 70-80dB of dynamic range.  
 
What would be helpful is if media producers sold two kinds of music, uncompressed and compressed.  An alternative would be to put a simple compression on/off switch on portable media players which would trigger a compression circuit--the high-end version would provide dynamic variable compression.  Broadcast audio has used such circuits for at least 60 years that I know about.

 

[watchnerd]

  Thanks for the info watchnerd.
 
Not being an insider at all, I wonder how much control the artists themselves have over the process. I am aware that a lot of mastering engineers are probably just doing what they are told, so they can earn a paycheck and not lose their job, but it's still disheartening IMO.
 
In fact, Bob Ludwig, who remastered Nivana's "Nevermind" record for the 20th anniversary release defended his loud mastering job on Twitter.
 

 
Yeah...notice that Ludwig doesn't defend it on artistic or engineering merits.  He just flat out said he did what his clients (label/producers) wanted.
 
Also, and I hate to break people's bubbles, but a lot of musicians listen to recordings on pretty mediocre gear, so they might not even notice.  They're more likely to invest in better/more instruments, amps, etc. Plus they're on the road a lot.  Most musicians I work with aren't audiophiles.

 

[ZianC]

The discussion of dynamic range is really timely for me because my mom just had a little argument with my dad about it when we were listening to music on a long drive. My dad put in a CD of some orchestral music and she pointed out that we wouldn't be able to hear most of the music except for the really loud bits (short of turning the volume way up). She wanted to keep the CD for listening to at home with headphones.
 
In this case, since my dad was sitting within reach of the radio and she wasn't, the CD stayed in the radio.
 
I wonder if any albums come in 2 mixes: 1 for serious listening and 1 for casual listening.

 

[disastermouse]

   
The two are inter-related: the reason the recordings are mastered to have a restricted dynamic range is because of the belief that the devices (mobile) that are popular for playback don't support a high dynamic range.
 
Think of it this way: a full dynamic range recording, played back on a poor dynamic range device, will lead the listener to crank up the volume because it's "too soft", which, when a loud part hits, will lead to clipping and distortion (because the gain is already near max on a device with little headroom), which sounds bad.
 
The belief is that by compressing the dynamic range it's easier for the user to manage volume and keep it in a range that sounds okay.
 
The recent AES paper on loudness explains in more detail.

I thought that it was due to radio attempted playback ear-splitting, get attention. Brickwall is a disease and we're only barely getting over it.

 

[disastermouse]

  Compression is particularly useful for commuters.  A car traveling at 62.5 mph (100 kph) creates a noise floor of 65-70 dB.  Buses, trains and subways can be even louder.  That doesn't leave much dynamic range before excessively high noise levels are reached.  It's also a good reason to wear closed headphones with active noise reduction, IEMs or ear plugs--of course you can't do this if you are driving.  There is justification for compressing the dynamic range to 20-30 dB for some users (eg.  those who are in noisy places).  The average level in a home is around 50dB which also doesn't leave room for a lot of dynamic range.  There are very few places where one could really utilize 70-80dB of dynamic range.  
 
What would be helpful is if media producers sold two kinds of music, uncompressed and compressed.  An alternative would be to put a simple compression on/off switch on portable media players which would trigger a compression circuit--the high-end version would provide dynamic variable compression.  Broadcast audio has used such circuits for at least 60 years that I know about.

Depends on the car. Lexus used to be a very quiet car. And you can wear earplugs. I used to wear them when I was motorcycle-only. The wind noise will kill your hearing faster than a pair of Grados played way too loud.