[tonykaz]

People don't seem to throw away their old vinyl any more than they throw away their family photos. Their Vinyl is their family memories.  But the Grannies will end up selling-off a couple of boxes of Vinyl when us old-geezers immigrate to Oakwood Valley of Rest.  
 
I still have about 200 vinyls from my old Hi-Fi retail business ( I gave away or dumped all the crappy stuff, which amounted to 90% of the entire collection ).   Buying vinyl was always a crap shoot, even a careful selection process would only yield about 10% of the "keep" variety!  
 
Today, about 30,000 Vinyl 33s sell on Ebay each month, Globally.    They seem to average a Price+Shipping cost of $10.   The Best of the Best can sell for $200,  I own many of those Best, which are patiently waiting for me to Sell.  
 
The lads committed to Vinyl are those same lads that were committed to Vinyl 40 years ago, who stayed with Vinyl when 16/44 Redbook had no beautiful method of playback. These lads will find themselves tied to 10,000+ collections that they can't bring themselves to separate from and have fond memories when they play some old music from their "Life" back then.  Vinyl is their Photo-Album of memories. God bless em, I won't antagonize them!  I will admonish (any youth) away from the format and disparage the Glossy Press for trying to breath life into it.
 
As far as I can figure:  Linn still make the LP-12 turntable, Vpi still offer turntables, SOTA still produce turntables and of course ClearAudio.  Does anyone "know" the actual monthly sales of these outfits? , I'll guess its in similar quantities to Pagani Roadsters or new carriages the Amish do their grocery shopping in.  
 
Mike Moffat, the Digital King, is still vinyl.  Hmm.  I wonder if he still has Quad ESLs that I loved so dearly and first heard in a Levinson created HQD ( Hartley Sub-Woffer, Quad ESLs, Decca Tweeter ) system?  
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[ScottFree]

Speaking of analogue. Jason, while browsing the Schiit website in the Getting Started section, under 'Choosing An Amp' it says Vali instead of Vali 2

 

[artur9]

  I detest the loudness wars with a serious passion, and would love to invest in a nice table and go all vinyl, but I ain't payin' no forty bucks for Stadium Arcadium, when I have the CD that I bought for $11.88!

I get raped for any format because I like classical and some jazz.  I wish it only cost $11.88.
 
Now, I just need to figure out which production houses have the best quality.

 

[AudioMan612]

  People don't seem to throw away their old vinyl any more than they throw away their family photos. Their Vinyl is their family memories.  But the Grannies will end up selling-off a couple of boxes of Vinyl when us old-geezers immigrate to Oakwood Valley of Rest.  
 
I still have about 200 vinyls from my old Hi-Fi retail business ( I gave away or dumped all the crappy stuff, which amounted to 90% of the entire collection ).   Buying vinyl was always a crap shoot, even a careful selection process would only yield about 10% of the "keep" variety!  
 
Today, about 30,000 Vinyl 33s sell on Ebay each month, Globally.    They seem to average a Price+Shipping cost of $10.   The Best of the Best can sell for $200,  I own many of those Best, which are patiently waiting for me to Sell.  
 
The lads committed to Vinyl are those same lads that were committed to Vinyl 40 years ago, who stayed with Vinyl when 16/44 Redbook had no beautiful method of playback. These lads will find themselves tied to 10,000+ collections that they can't bring themselves to separate from and have fond memories when they play some old music from their "Life" back then.  Vinyl is their Photo-Album of memories. God bless em, I won't antagonize them!  I will admonish (any youth) away from the format and disparage the Glossy Press for trying to breath life into it.
 
As far as I can figure:  Linn still make the LP-12 turntable, Vpi still offer turntables, SOTA still produce turntables and of course ClearAudio.  Does anyone "know" the actual monthly sales of these outfits? , I'll guess its in similar quantities to Pagani Roadsters or new carriages the Amish do their grocery shopping in.  
 
Mike Moffat, the Digital King, is still vinyl.  Hmm.  I wonder if he still has Quad ESLs that I loved so dearly and first heard in a Levinson created HQD ( Hartley Sub-Woffer, Quad ESLs, Decca Tweeter ) system?  
 
Tony in Michigan

I'm in my 20's and I love vinyl, as do many of my friends who are my age.  I don't love it for nostalgia, I love how it sounds, I love how much effort can go into the artwork of a 12" square, I love the cool (albeit gimmicky) things you can do with colored discs and such, and above all, just the experience of it.  Downloading an album or even buying a CD just doesn't give me the same pleasure of holding an LP in my hand (and that's not to say that I don't love digital audio as well; my digital collection is much bigger than my analog collection).

You named 3 companies that make turntables...uh...there are far more than that.  Here you go: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?812-List-of-Turntable-Manufacturers.  In addition to that, there are all of the companies that make cartridges, tonearms, record cleaners, and other accessories.  Don't get me wrong, the vinyl fad will not last forever, and it is not a perfect format, but right now, it is much bigger than you imply.  If you go to any Hi-Fi show, the majority of the rooms still have analog setups in addition to their digital setups.  Hell, some of them even have tape machines.  It's also worth noting that while it is very slow these days, advancements are still being made in turntables.  A modern turntable will most likely outperform one of similar retail value from a decade or two ago.
 
I also don't understand what you mean about a careful selection process yielding only 10% of "good" material.  Either you have an extremely limited taste in music, or your "careful selection process" is...well, Schiit.  I have hardly ever been disappointed with a record I've bought since I finished high-school (at which point, my musical taste started expanding rapidly and changing).  There are definitely issues here, for example, the American 45 RPM pressing of Portishead - Third has a bunch of surface noise, while the UK 33 1/3 RPM pressing is fine, but issues like this hardly make up 90% of vinyl.

I am totally on-board with vinyl being a dated format...but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place.  It's a testament to vinyl that after all of these years, it is still one of the best sounding formats of music we have available.  I wouldn't recommend it to someone who can't afford to spend a bit of money on equipment and records, but if you can, it's a very rewarding way of collecting and listening to music, and that goes for all ages.

 

[Baldr]

  Mike Moffat, the Digital King, is still vinyl.  Hmm.  I wonder if he still has Quad ESLs that I loved so dearly and first heard in a Levinson created HQD ( Hartley Sub-Woffer, Quad ESLs, Decca Tweeter ) system?  
 

Still part time vinyl.  The best records are PFG.  So are the best digital sources and are much of the time those best of the best are mutually exclusive.  So why not enjoy it all??  Neither format needs to be the best.  This is not a race or a "shoot out".  If you can put up with the extra fuss of analog, why not have both?  It is best to remember that it is not an imperative.
 
Judging by our Mani vs. Modi2 sales, there is almost 20% of the interest of analog vs. digital.   In the under $150 source electronics, why not be 20% more accommodating?

 

[disastermouse]

  Still part time vinyl.  The best records are PFG.  So are the best digital sources and are much of the time those best of the best are mutually exclusive.  So why not enjoy it all??  Neither format needs to be the best.  This is not a race or a "shoot out".  If you can put up with the extra fuss of analog, why not have both?  It is best to remember that it is not an imperative.
 
Judging by our Mani vs. Modi2 sales, there is almost 20% of the interest of analog vs. digital.   In the under $150 source electronics, why not be 20% more accommodating?

Jesus, Mike..my wallet is already thin enough. Some of us don't need the encouragement. Some don't need the disapproving looks of our significant others, either.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr.AudioMan612 & Mr.Baldr,
 
OK, I accept your positions and viewpoints.  Vinyl has it's place! 
 
For me, it's place is in history but it's still out there selling, maybe 20% of the low price segment, to those who "truly" appreciate the PFG qualities it offers and to those able to make the commitment to fragile mechanical systems.   I'll admire all y'all, from a distance.  
 
About one month ago, I met a music reviewer lady ( in her 20s, I imagine ) for the N.Y.Times who collects (and plays) 78s, she thinks that she's one of only a tiny group of 78 collectors.  They stopped making those things 65-70 years ago.  It kinda figures that 33s will be hanging-on for at least that long, considering it's a much better format. 
 
It's ok if you take my murmuring with a grain of salt, my Wife is an Ordained Minister whilst I feel that Religion poisons everything. Yet, we still get along ( at least for the last 50 years) somehow.
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[bigro]

I am In My Early Thirty's. My Brother and I Was My Dad's Automated Record Flipper in my early years, Along with T.V. channel changer and Antennae Adjuster. I am back to flipping my own records some 25 years later. The Convenience of Digital cannot be disputed. You can have a Bazillion Songs on a 2 TB 3.5 Inch Hard drive. But then we fight the Battle of what's the Best Music Server or transport, the best DAC, USB vs. SPDIF , the Best Operating System, Or the Best storage format. so on and so forth. Sure we can complain about the multi thousand dollar Turntables and Styluses, the cleaning regimen etc. But we have Multi thousand dollar DACS and Music Servers, crappy USB ports, OS not seeing the DAC's, trying to find out what system process can be shutdown, blah blah blah. Same Schiit Different Toilet.
 
As Mike Said , I do not feel there is a need to Declare allegiance. When the family is out and it's just you and the dog get a glass of Scotch and Take in the Analog. I find the process makes it easy to unplug. I am one of those that Find that a well Mastered LP on a have way decent analog rig can present details and sound stage that the digital versions of that album does not. Most other times digital is my go too .I will say that the Bimby Brings the Digital format that much closer to what I do like about analog, I can only Imagine what Gumby and Yggy does.

 

[judmarc]

 
Jesus, Mike..my wallet is already thin enough. Some of us don't need the encouragement. Some don't need the disapproving looks of our significant others, either.

 
There are quite a few nice budget TTs around these days.  (Have a Pro-ject RPM 1.3 myself, sounds good, looks good.)  And for content, used record stores are *everywhere* these days.  You've got to look a little harder, but good-sounding bargains are achievable.
 
Maybe the best thing about the used record stores from my point of view isn't the vinyl (I kept all my old LPs, and got some of the pickings from my brother and other friends when they got rid of their collections, so I don't need any more), but the fact that most of them have used CDs as well, and since it's not their main line the silver discs are usually very cheap.  In the store I frequent, they're from $1 - $3 (including box sets).  So plenty of great content around for cheap on both the analog and digital fronts.

 

[ThePianoMan]

Still part time vinyl.  The best records are PFG.  So are the best digital sources and are much of the time those best of the best are mutually exclusive.  So why not enjoy it all??  Neither format needs to be the best.  This is not a race or a "shoot out".  If you can put up with the extra fuss of analog, why not have both?  It is best to remember that it is not an imperative.

Judging by our Mani vs. Modi2 sales, there is almost 20% of the interest of analog vs. digital.   In the under $150 source electronics, why not be 20% more accommodating?

Mike, we know Jason Enjoys Zu speakers and uses a Raggy, but I'd love to know what your current listening setup looks like.

 

[bigro]

   
There are quite a few nice budget TTs around these days.  (Have a Pro-ject RPM 1.3 myself, sounds good, looks good.)  And for content, used record stores are *everywhere* these days.  You've got to look a little harder, but good-sounding bargains are achievable.
 
Maybe the best thing about the used record stores from my point of view isn't the vinyl (I kept all my old LPs, and got some of the pickings from my brother and other friends when they got rid of their collections, so I don't need any more), but the fact that most of them have used CDs as well, and since it's not their main line the silver discs are usually very cheap.  In the store I frequent, they're from $1 - $3 (including box sets).  So plenty of great content around for cheap on both the analog and digital fronts.

Agreed. I also frequent Good will and the like. .50 - $2 for CD's Records Maybe. A lot of the CD's I find have little to no scratches. So Records there may be a possibility. Be Prepared to go through a full cleaning regiment.

 

[jlangholzj]

W.r.t. the phono stages....There's only so many ways to twist a pig to get bacon. You've got to have a specific filter for proper sound reproduction on a record. Also the biggest improvement can be found in adding a sand buffer at the end of em (if you're using tubes) because the 12ax7 has absolutely HORRID drive capabilities (but we've already expressed our hate for that damn thing. (looks in upper left corner at avatar) *sigh*
 
Quote:

  EML is the only ones to walk down this road as far as I know, with their 20A/20B/30A series DHT tubes which are at least partially new designs.  But these are directly heated triodes aimed at the niche.  The same idea, taking a look at a classic tube such as the 45 or 300B and trying to improve upon it for the modern era, should be attempted with small signal triodes as well.

 
HOLY SMOKES those prices for the 20B

I guess to find a non-chineese 300B or 20B though you're not paying cheap prices to begin with though....
 

  So much truth here. The REAL reason I can't bring myself to dive into vinyl "whole heartedly" is the expense of buying the actual records.  Too many "collectors" in the market for the used stuff, and the new stuff isn't really well priced for my budget.
 
I detest the loudness wars with a serious passion, and would love to invest in a nice table and go all vinyl, but I ain't payin' no forty bucks for Stadium Arcadium, when I have the CD that I bought for $11.88!

 
Sadly, when I look at high res digital music, I almost come to the same conclusion. These aren't even physical copies, and most of them are just high res versions of the poorly mastered CD...schiit kills me...

 
Yeahno. I have the same issue. I'll pay that for stuff that either holds a special place for me or because the originals are equally as tough to come across (i shelled out for the led zepp repressings because I've got almost all the originals as well....including a master by a particular RL person...). As an example though you can get and original "Fragile" (one of my fav. YES albums) in VG condition for ~$10. Vs the repressing is ~$30-40 or something like that. The original will suffer from the "thin vinyl" of the 80's but I've got a whole bunch of styx records that play just great and they had the same "problem".
 
As someone else had mentioned, there's still great deals and quality out there, you just need to do a fair bit of research before you get into it.
 

  As Mike Said , I do not feel there is a need to Declare allegiance. When the family is out and it's just you and the dog get a glass of Scotch and Take in the Analog. I find the process makes it easy to unplug. I am one of those that Find that a well Mastered LP on a have way decent analog rig can present details and sound stage that the digital versions of that album does not. Most other times digital is my go too .I will say that the Bimby Brings the Digital format that much closer to what I do like about analog, I can only Imagine what Gumby and Yggy does.

 
The flip side to that is with the "softer" nature of analog....you've got a bit more relaxing listen. When i drop my 1st pressing of Zepp IV or DSOTM I hear music. Its crisp, clean, great playback, etc. When I listen to those digitally I can hear that SOMEONE forgot to grease Bonham's bass pedal (and its present in a large majority of the songs...grumble grumble) AND you can pick up tape splices in "Money".....its one of those "once you see, cannot be unseen" things. The audio reproduction of the digital formats is AMAZING its just due to a more transparent nature....ya hear things.
 
Actually I started out with mum's old vinyl collection and just recently shifted over to digital and headphones after some prodding by a friend.....while a lot of folks will moan about cost of analog collecting....digital aint no joke either!
 

  Agreed. I also frequent Good will and the like. .50 - $2 for CD's Records Maybe. A lot of the CD's I find have little to no scratches. So Records there may be a possibility. Be Prepared to go through a full cleaning regiment.

 
I picked up my 1st gen MoFi of DSoTM from a antique store for $2. Its in EX quality and is probably one of the best sounding in my collection. Cleaning was what saved my Ludwig master of "Houses of the holy" looked a little rough but after some TLC its very listenable yet! As with both....they're out there...ya just gotta look.

 

[45longcolt]

Nice to see so many championing the ol' licorice pizza. There is one aspect where LPs are unquestionably superior - the visceral experience of playing one. The removal of a substantial disc from the sleeve, with the finger tips placed just so on the label and edge. The well-judged lowering of the stylus into the groove. The comforting sight of the spinning platter, and perhaps the gentle rhythmic bobbing of the tonearm if the disc isn't perfectly flat. And of course the visual delight of artwork you can really see and lyrics printed large enough to read without optical aid. Embrace the ritual!
 
Having both a Ygg and a decent vinyl set-up (Ortofon 2MBlack/PSA Nuwave Phono), I have done a few vinyl/digital comparos on familiar material. While I expected to prefer the old skool disc most of the time, things didn't turn out that way. Sometimes the CD wins, sometimes it's too close to call. And often I am floored by just how good the vinyl is. But I'm certain that I'm missing little if anything while sticking with the silver or the file. And for that I humbly thank Mr. Moffat.

 

[watchnerd]

   I have done a few vinyl/digital comparos on familiar material. While I expected to prefer the old skool disc most of the time, things didn't turn out that way. Sometimes the CD wins, sometimes it's too close to call. And often I am floored by just how good the vinyl is. But I'm certain that I'm missing little if anything while sticking with the silver or the file. And for that I humbly thank Mr. Moffat.

 
I do a lot of those comparisons, too, and feel that it usually comes down to the mastering (assuming great quality vinyl).  To broadly stereotype (assuming material originally recorded in analog), vinyl usually beats an early digital mastering (80s - late 90's / early 00's), but recent digital re-masterings usually fare much better against vinyl, and in some ways are superior.

 

[madwolfa]

I'd say in general mastering for vinyl beats the mastering for CD. And the media itself is not to blame here... From purely technical standpoint CD is superior, of course.