Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Jul 16, 2015 at 6:55 PM Post #7,036 of 150,510
Just as important as measurements is the interpretation of the results of measurements. Anyone can measure stuff. Whether you can tell anything useful from it is another matter altogether. Jason's multitone test is a great example of that. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it obviously yields information that J&crew know how to read to find issues in their circuit. Linkwitz uses a shaped sine wave to characterize his speakers, whereas most of the rest of the world uses only impulse response. Measurements are just tools: how you use them is just as important.
 
As for multitone tests, the perceptual audio guys have been using it for a while to look at MP3 coders and similar things. These things do nasty damage to multitone tests, and sometimes that's audible.
 
THD, IMD, multitone, and other distortion measurements are all measuring the same underlying phenomenon: the nonlinearity of the circuit. Here linearity is rigorously defined, and it's what we all learned in high school algebra. A function is linear iff:
 
1. f(x) + f(y) = f(x+y) You can take two separate signals, add them, and the audio device will output the same thing as when it separately processes each of them and you added that together.
2. f(a*x) = a*f(x). If you make the signal bigger by a constant factor a, the output will also be a constant factor a bigger
 
That's it. That is all linear means. Here is a straight wire:
 
f(x) = x (what goes in comes out unchanged)
 
Here's an amplifier:
 
f(x) = a*x (the output is bigger by a factor of a)
 
Consider a non-linear function:
 
f(x) = x*x
 
This is not linear because:
 
1. f(a) + f(b) = a*a + b*b, which is not the same as f(a+b) = a*a + 2*a*b + b*b 
 
If a and b are sine waves, and you apply some trigonometric identities, you find out that you get 2nd order distortion. Basically, if you have a transfer function that is a power series, each power is a higher order distortion. f(x) = x*x*x would have 3rd order distortion.
 
All multitone tests are doing is f(a+b+c+d+ ...) where a, b, c, d, etc. are the individual tones. If we get individual tones back out, then we know it's linear. If we get grass and fuzz and extra tones, then it's not linear. How non-linear depends on what extra crap comes out.
 
The problem with THD is that it wraps all of this under 1 number. You could have distortion components so close to the main tone that it's effectively masked out and inaudible, but that might generate the same THD number as a tone that's far away from its fundamental, and therefore way more audible. Some audio people have proposed an error signal measurement where you subtract the output from the input and look at its spectrum (basically --- it's more complicated).
 
One more interesting thing about this that a poster alluded to up above. Distortion combines in nasty ways, which is maybe one reason (I'm speculating) the awful performance of speakers and headphones are more tolerable than bad electronic distortion.
 
Consider this: your preamp is non-linear like this:
 
f(x) = x + a*x*x (a is a constant, and very small in very low-distortion devices)
 
It will have supposedly pleasant-sounding 2nd order distortion.
 
Your amp is also a bit non-linear in the 2nd order distortion way:
 
g(x) = x + b*x*x (b is another constant similar to a)
 
What happens when you play music through this system?
 
s(x) = g(f(x))
 
Working through all the math, you get:
 
s(x) = x + b*x*x + 2*a*b*x*x*x + a*a*b*x*x*x*x
 
Basically, you get extra 2nd, 3rd, and 4th order components presented to your loudspeaker. Your loudspeaker then adds its own specialness and produces even more distortion components.
 
And this is just non-linearity, and just the tip of the iceberg of what could go wrong. There are lots of other things, and they tend to be specific to the domain of the device in which they occur, eg. resonances in speakers, software bugs in DACs, etc., all of which can show up in these measurements, but may be very difficult to trace back to the root cause.
 
Jul 16, 2015 at 7:06 PM Post #7,037 of 150,510
I am sure glad that I gave up math back in college and can now just focus on enjoying the music.  Thanks, Jason and all your associates at Schiit Audio!!
 
Jul 16, 2015 at 7:11 PM Post #7,038 of 150,510
  Interesting insight for me to learn that transducers govern the audible impact of frequency response and harmonic and aharmonic distortions.  Makes me second guess myself for sneering at newbies who post about which TOTL headphones they should purchase for their dinky DAPs, iphones or entry level desktop rigs.  I think I've posted more than once to first upgrade their upstream components before trying to address any SQ deficiencies, detected or otherwise, at the 'tailpipe' component in the chain.


It's amazing how many people lose their mind when we tell them "you really should pick your transducer first, then worry about amps and DACs." 
 
Hint: if we're telling you not to buy our stuff, you can probably trust that the advice is sincere. Just like an ad agency telling you, "You don't need advertising." Or a mechanic saying, "Your car is just fine, nothing to work on here."
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
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Jul 16, 2015 at 8:24 PM Post #7,039 of 150,510
 
It's amazing how many people lose their mind when we tell them "you really should pick your transducer first, then worry about amps and DACs." 
 
Hint: if we're telling you not to buy our stuff, you can probably trust that the advice is sincere. Just like an ad agency telling you, "You don't need advertising." Or a mechanic saying, "Your car is just fine, nothing to work on here."


I have read you saying that numerous time and have listened. I'm at pretty much my sumit-fi with Bifrost/Asgard 2. My next upgrades are powered monitors and then a new DAP. After that, I'm going to try to save for something like Mr. Speakers Ether and/or Noble K10 universal fit.
 My current transducers are Shure SRH1540 (office use, need closed) and Shure SE535, they do ok for me since I've never been able to listen to anything better, so I'm happy. I smile when I connect to my Schiit.
 
Jul 16, 2015 at 11:01 PM Post #7,040 of 150,510
  Hint: if we're telling you not to buy our stuff, you can probably trust that the advice is sincere. Just like an ad agency telling you, "You don't need advertising." Or a mechanic saying, "Your car is just fine, nothing to work on here."

 
I knew it was time to get a new car when my mechanic told me that I was better off getting a new car rather than trying to fix my old one.
 
It's amazing how many people lose their mind when we tell them "you really should pick your transducer first, then worry about amps and DACs." 

 
For people starting out, I tell them to follow an approximate 1:2:3 ratio of where to spend their money... dac:amp:headphone. The math nerd in me expanded that into the Fibonacci sequence later on with 1:1:2:3:5 (power, cables*, dac, amp, headphone), but once you start climbing into the realm of diminishing returns all bets are off. *the first two may substitute for tweaks and voodoo of choice
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 1:10 AM Post #7,041 of 150,510
Jason-
 
Do you guys burn in components before you measure them?  What about letting them warm up?  I think Mike posted something about components measuring differently as they warm up, but I can't remember where.  Just wondering if you take these into account, or if you have noticed a difference between new/old or hot/cold...Thanks!
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 1:44 AM Post #7,042 of 150,510
"distortion of the distortion" isn't a big issue when considering electronics contribution - Jason already gave "better than -60 dB" for most Schiit
  In general, we shoot for -6odB minimum, or 0.1%, at typical outputs. The only amp we make that doesn’t make this number is Vali. Most everything is much, much better, though.

so even 10% transducer distortion only gives -80 dB max "distortion of the distortion"
 Most everything is much, much better, though.

 
Jul 17, 2015 at 9:53 AM Post #7,043 of 150,510
What about the subjective evaluation of tonality, sound stage size, instrument focus, textures, micro and macro dynamics, highs and lows extension, etc? No one in the entire company evaluates those in any part of product development, prototype evaluation and production samples?
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 10:05 AM Post #7,044 of 150,510
  What about the subjective evaluation of tonality, sound stage size, instrument focus, textures, micro and macro dynamics, highs and lows extension, etc? No one in the entire company evaluates those in any part of product development, prototype evaluation and production samples?

Probably because:
  • One cannot measure/quantify or prove subjective judgements.
  • That cannot be repeatable with different people or even the same person (blind testing).
  • People will argue and fight over their differences, not good for business.
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 10:16 AM Post #7,045 of 150,510
Actually one can evaluate subjective criteria, maybe "measure" was too strong a word.
 
An example that comes to my mind comes from the agro commodity business: there are experts tasting coffee samples (I suppose wine samples works that way too, but this one I am not sure) and rating them. This is a common practice between sellers and buyers, and they usually agree whether that subjective quality evaluation does meet (or does not meet) what they had agreed to sell/buy in a contract.
 
Back to audio, even though there is no such formal subjective evaluation and rating between sellers and buyers, I am curious if Schiit evaluates their equipment likewise for internal quality control or any other reason.
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 10:24 AM Post #7,046 of 150,510
  What about the subjective evaluation of tonality, sound stage size, instrument focus, textures, micro and macro dynamics, highs and lows extension, etc? No one in the entire company evaluates those in any part of product development, prototype evaluation and production samples?


That's the "listening" part, measured throughout the article. However, as stated on our website (and in the book), we do not speculate on what you'll hear, including no "seeding" of expectations. We don't promise audio nirvana. We let the owners and reviewers make their own assessments. 
 
Which, by the way, also irritates the heck out of some people--they would really rather be told, "Yep, you're gonna hear rainbows and unicorns and be transported to new heights of audio nirvana," (of course, if you buy our $XXXX product, that is.)
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
Jul 17, 2015 at 10:26 AM Post #7,047 of 150,510
  Jason-
 
Do you guys burn in components before you measure them?  What about letting them warm up?  I think Mike posted something about components measuring differently as they warm up, but I can't remember where.  Just wondering if you take these into account, or if you have noticed a difference between new/old or hot/cold...Thanks!


Yep, measurements are made both cold and warm. Burn-in won't really affect measurements. If something measures markedly different between cold and warm states, there's probably something wrong, like a component getting too hot.
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
Jul 17, 2015 at 10:35 AM Post #7,048 of 150,510
Sorry, a bit off-topic here, but if any of y'all just got a PM from me... you should really check it out... RIGHT NOW.  
tongue.gif

 
Jul 17, 2015 at 10:48 AM Post #7,049 of 150,510
 
That's the "listening" part, measured throughout the article. However, as stated on our website (and in the book), we do not speculate on what you'll hear, including no "seeding" of expectations. We don't promise audio nirvana. We let the owners and reviewers make their own assessments. 
 
Which, by the way, also irritates the heck out of some people--they would really rather be told, "Yep, you're gonna hear rainbows and unicorns and be transported to new heights of audio nirvana," (of course, if you buy our $XXXX product, that is.)

 
The subjective part seemed to me (correct me if I got it wrong) that is only for "stuff like scratchy volume pots, operational noises or glitches, or interference only at specific output levels is something that automated or instrumented testing isn’t going to find easily", and you "left it at that".
 
I know you do not promise subjective stuff, that is why I asked if "internally" you used it for product development, QA or any other reason.
 
Jul 17, 2015 at 10:50 AM Post #7,050 of 150,510
   
The subjective part seemed to me (correct me if I got it wrong) that is only for "stuff like scratchy volume pots, operational noises or glitches, or interference only at specific output levels is something that automated or instrumented testing isn’t going to find easily", and you "left it at that".
 
I know you do not promise subjective stuff, that is why I asked if "internally" you used it for product development, QA or any other reason.


Of course we do. Otherwise why listen at all? Just read the meter, and all is well if there are enough zeroes.
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/

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