[GokaiN]

I think one of the best things about the audio equipment industry is number of small manufacturers that are so hyper focused on quality because they have a passion for equipment themselves and would want to provide others with no less than the quality they themselves would want.  I hope this is something that doesn't get lost along the way for these companies as they grow and expand.

 

[OldRoadToad]

  "Double blind and prove it."  Excuse me while I ignore this conversation.

How pedestrian of you. Thanks, man.
 
The Toad

 

[OldRoadToad]

   
In this case I guess you should never again trust a single piece of hardware coming from Schiit. As it happens Schiit headquarters is infested with "subjectivists" (some corrupted former "objectivists"), who firmly believe in no DBT'ing (no blindfolds or anything), use human ears in sighted conditions for final fine-tuning of their devices, obstinately refuse to release a DAC/amp combo for fear of infesting each other with GHz noise (and curtly point you to buying a Modi/Magni duo, which are shielded from each other very nicely, thank you), won't add in displays for much the same reasons, firmly believe that published specs are largely uncorrelated with sonic performance, consistently tout the 3D holographic soundstage/imaging of their DACs, believe that sonic performance in the audible band is related to a stable FR outside the audible band, and will even claim to hear differences between their DACs, amps and, yes!, between tubes and SS gear. Who knows what other audiophile voodoo incantations they throw at their devices...

 
Well, okay then!  From what I have listened to from Schiit, it sounds like music which is all one could truly hope for.   If I truly wanted to be "there", I would simply buy a ticket to a live performance of a still living artist. The whole ENC scene is not for me but that does not mean I cannot enjoy the  looks and genuine performance of a Schiit product.   Nice reply though, and I am being serious.  Humor is good.
 
Thanks, man!

 

[landroni]

 
 
Well, okay then!  From what I have listened to from Schiit, it sounds like music which is all one could truly hope for.   If I truly wanted to be "there", I would simply buy a ticket to a live performance of a still living artist.

Tried that, didn't quite work out for me:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782824/schiit-fire-and-save-matches-bifrost-multibit-is-here/2010#post_12530904
 
Unfortunately there is precious little live unamplified music out there, outside symphonic orchestras or the odd small-town jazz hall (one may count in organ and choir performances as well). But in a typical "live" performance, you will generally be greeted by a complex ADC, mixing board, DAC, long cables and power speakers, all presenting numerous potential bottlenecks (and unclear meddling by autotune, EQ and the like). It's no fun when you go to see your favourite artist and leave in the evening unsure how their voice actually sounds like...

 

[Billheiser]

   
Unfortunately there is precious little live unamplified music out there, outside symphonic orchestras or the odd small-town jazz hall (one may count in organ and choir performances as well). But in a typical "live" performance, you will generally be greeted by a complex ADC, mixing board, DAC, long cables and power speakers, all presenting numerous potential bottlenecks (and unclear meddling by autotune, EQ and the like). It's no fun when you go to see your favourite artist and leave in the evening unsure how their voice actually sounds like...

Yes.  There's a built-in issue here, when we go see any performers who draw more than a handful of people - amplification and processing and PA's will necessarily be used.  I still hear unamplified music in folk clubs (if the performer is not big and famous) and acoustic nights and open mike nights, etc.  On the other hand, when i'm listening to music made to be amplified, I want it amplified!

 

[520RanchBro]

 
Unfortunately there is precious little live unamplified music out there, outside symphonic orchestras or the odd small-town jazz hall (one may count in organ and choir performances as well). But in a typical "live" performance, you will generally be greeted by a complex ADC, mixing board, DAC, long cables and power speakers, all presenting numerous potential bottlenecks (and unclear meddling by autotune, EQ and the like). It's no fun when you go to see your favourite artist and leave in the evening unsure how their voice actually sounds like...

I'd hazard a guess that without a lot of the post processing a lot of singers that people enjoy (more in bands and not trained vocalists) would sound pretty bad, especially touring ones.

 

[landroni]

  I'd hazard a guess that without a lot of the post processing a lot of singers that people enjoy (more in bands and not trained vocalists) would sound pretty bad, especially touring ones.

At least they could put a FLASHING warning sign, so that I (and others) could avoid bothering with them in the first place...

 

[RCBinTN]

 
Tried that, didn't quite work out for me:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782824/schiit-fire-and-save-matches-bifrost-multibit-is-here/2010#post_12530904
 
Unfortunately there is precious little live unamplified music out there, outside symphonic orchestras or the odd small-town jazz hall (one may count in organ and choir performances as well). But in a typical "live" performance, you will generally be greeted by a complex ADC, mixing board, DAC, long cables and power speakers, all presenting numerous potential bottlenecks (and unclear meddling by autotune, EQ and the like). It's no fun when you go to see your favourite artist and leave in the evening unsure how their voice actually sounds like...

 
If you want really good, natural music, visit your local symphony orchestra.  For me, it's the Nashville symphony.  Superb!  
Even the wanna-be bands playing at Tootsie's are over-amped these days.  

 

[520RanchBro]

 
At least they could put a FLASHING warning sign, so that I (and others) could avoid bothering with them in the first place...

I mean a lot of musicians use gear as a huge part of their sound and many genres as we know them would not exist without all the compressors, eqs, amps and effects. Can you imagine if rock and punk were just acoustic? Blech! Can you imagine the 80's without digital reverb and chorus fx? Hell no.
 
I firmly believe that musicians should use whatever they want to get the sound you want, no matter how they accomplish getting the sound. Amps, pedals, effects, autotune, whatever it is, it's all making music. It's the end product that matters. 
 
What is a pure signal anyway? Sounds really boring to me.

 

[Argo Duck]

^ all very true. You're talking about situations where the musician is in charge of the technology. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, new possibilities are introduced.

But I suspect iandroni is talking about a 'natural voice' - "leave...unsure how their voice actually sounds" - rather than a 'pure signal'. As I understand it that's where stuff like autotune can over-smooth, removing emotion from good singers even as it makes bad singers palatable.

 

[earnmyturns]

  Unfortunately there is precious little live unamplified music out there, outside symphonic orchestras or the odd small-town jazz hall (one may count in organ and choir performances as well). But in a typical "live" performance, you will generally be greeted by a complex ADC, mixing board, DAC, long cables and power speakers, all presenting numerous potential bottlenecks (and unclear meddling by autotune, EQ and the like). It's no fun when you go to see your favourite artist and leave in the evening unsure how their voice actually sounds like...

It's complicated. A while ago I heard an amazing performance at SFJAZZ led by Zakir Hussain (tabla) with several superb musicians from India, including vocalist Shankar Mahadevan, as well as some of my very favorite jazz musicians: Chris Potter (sax), Dave Holland (bass), and Eric Harland (drums). There was amplification, but we had front-row seats just a few feet from Mahadevan. One of the mind-blowing segments of the show had Mahadevan and Harland doing call-response as if they were playing 10-dimensional tennis in rhythm-pitch space; another one was a magical trio between Potter, Holland, and Hussain. Yes, it wasn't purely acoustic, but the sound was so balanced and coherent that the magic never broke. As another example, in the same venue (which has amazing acoustics), I remember a mesmeric set by the TEJ trio -- Taylor Eigsti (piano), Julian Lage (electric guitar) and Harland. Some amplification, for sure, but everything was so suspended in the space above the players that it really did not matter. And I could go on and on... One final example. There's a beautiful ECM duo recording, "Hagar's Song,"  by Jason Moran (piano) and Charles Lloyd (sax, flute). As with other top ECM/Manfred Eicher productions, attacks and decays live in some magical space above and between the players. But I've also heard Moran and Lloyd live at SFJAZZ, and the experience was different (freer, more improvisational) but still aurally superb. The SFJAZZ house crew seem to be very, very good and try their best to keep electronic effects under control, but on occasion things go wrong. The most memorable was at a gig with Bill Frisell, Eric Harland, and others where one of Harland's drums was resonating annoyingly with Frisell's guitar, and eventually Harland lost it and started hitting his drum set until he found the bit (a snare, I think) that was resonating with Frisell's guitar amp. Actually, it's pretty funny to see Frisell fighting his complicated gear now and then, once unplugging and throwing to the back some box, mumbling about it getting in the way. 

 

[johnjen]

One distinction that I find useful to consider is between using the sound system as reinforcement vs being the main source of the sound that the audience hears (PA).
 
When I was involved, lo those many years ago, reinforcement was much harder to do correctly, where as PA was 'easier' in that you just cranked up the gain and 'replaced' the onstage sound, which didn't rely upon 'matching' the natural sounds the musicians made, which makes reinforcement more of a challenge.
 
And reinforcement is really only applicable in medium to small venues, where the area to cover is not to large and rock and roll volumes are not expected nor wanted.
 
These days most folks want body penetrating 'feeeeeel' the sound levels, which isn't going to happen with reinforcement.
And the job of matching the quality and harmonic content of the instruments with what comes out of the reinforcement system is much more of challenge than is required for any PA system.
 
And I must say that these days PA systems are VERY sophisticated so much so that they can rival what is created in the studio, which is a testament to all of the electronics in use, but then you see the counter moves of musicians going all acoustic to get away from all of the complexity and lack of variability and flexibility that these systems impose.
 
Talk about a double edged sword…
 
JJ

 

[tonykaz]

What's this world coming to?
 
Stereophile just reviewed the Big Schiit Rag Amp.
 
Nice review! 
 
But, look at the comments.   
 
Those winey Audiophiles are complaining about : NO Remote being a deal killer. 
 
A measlly $2,000 for an Audiophile Amp and their bitching.  
 
I suppose that I'm just too "Old School" to cope with these folks wanting "yet another remote device" 
 
High-End Audio is "the" Deal Killer for me.  I'm delighted that I've been out of the Business for 3 + Decades.
 
The rear mounted Power Switch was a bit of silly fun, Subjective vs. Objective is a bit more serious.
 
However, the real deal comes down to convenience being the deciding weight on the Scale.  
 
I wonder how many $500,000 Wilson-VTL-Transparent-ClearAudio deals fell thru because of Remotes?  
 
I'm getting kinda old now and I'm out to pasture, the above is the best I seem able to come up with for a RANT! 
 
I'm flying to Florida on Saturday and I have to get my own Boarding Pass ( for the first time in a very long time ), guess I'm learning how the everyday world works, I'm appalled by what I'm realizing people have to cope with.  
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[jimmers]

 
Stereophile just reviewed the Big Schiit Rag Amp.
 
Nice review! 
 
But, look at the comments.   
 
Those winey Audiophiles are complaining about : NO Remote being a deal killer. 
 
Tony in Michigan

What I read in the review was:
 
"...Best of all: no menu or remote control! ...", 
and, regarding the lack of remote,
... "To my mind this required physical interaction with the act of playing music is the Ragnarok's most important feature"
 
Doesn't sound like he thought it was a "deal killer".
 
re post, sounds more whiny ? than "RANT!"

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. Jimmers,
 
The comments from Audiophiles not the reviewer's comments.
 
Tony in Michigan