[yay101]

I feel like succession is the name of the long warranty game. By the time it's even 5 years into its life there will likely be better equipment for cheaper available and in 20 years time when you brush off the equipment its unserviceable anyway, even if it works and standards don't change.

 

[MrSlim]

  I'm really curious, what would be a (potentially) good reason for offering a 20 year warranty? Bragging rights? Pride?
Is it a positive enough selling feature to offset the long term repair costs?
Not that we're naming any names; just curious what your thoughts on that are.
 

 
I'll name names.  As mentioned before, Bryston offers a 20 year warranty on their analog gear. For them, I believe it was born out of fact that they started building Pro level gear, the kind of stuff that needs to be able to take the abuse of the road, and keep on ticking, as well as being quickly and easily repaired.  I'm not sure about the later stuff, but my Bryston 3B had pluggable channel modules, quick and easy removal for return/repair.  I think pride in their product also plays a factor, and I'm sure they must have run the numbers and determined that they wouldn't be exposed if the failure rate trend of the previous years continued going forward.   
 
In the beginning, the 20 year warranty was offered retroactively too, and transferrable to whom ever owned it.  I bought a .5b preamp, used, that I sent in for repairs probably 10 years later, for a scratchy pot, and they changed that, the power cord, and all the input jacks (because the gold plating was getting crufty) and all it cost me was shipping one way, and a replacement shipping box($10 if I recall, because I didnt have the original).  When I had to downsize, (thus the headphone focus) I think I got at least as much as I paid for both pieces (both purchased used) and they were both at least 25 years old.. 
 
They are still one of the best no BS audio companies around.  Not cheap by any means, but value for dollar, and still Canadian.. (Go Great White North!)  

 

[Jason Stoddard]

  I'm really curious, what would be a (potentially) good reason for offering a 20 year warranty? Bragging rights? Pride?
Is it a positive enough selling feature to offset the long term repair costs?

 
Good question! One word answer: marketing.
 
A longer warranty gives the impression of higher overall quality and higher confidence in the product. Car companies (usually ones in trouble, or known in their past for unreliability or shoddy manufacturing) have used this strategy to help sell their new (and hopefully improved) models. Car companies who engaged in this practice are now retracting these warranties back to industry standards, probably for overall cost containment, or because in the (current) strong car sales market, long warranties are perceived as being unnecessary.
 
In audio, a 20-year warranty helps differentiate from the competition and create the perception of a higher-quality product. In the past, this wasn't really such a bad bet. I have quite a bit of Sumo and Theta gear that's 20+ years old and still working fine, though they are probably do for a re-cap soon (more on this below).
 
Back then, we were using leaded solder, so the inherent lifespan of the solder isn't a factor--20 years should be well within the capability of leaded solder. That means, in the past, the primary lifespan-determining factor for audio gear was probably the capacitor lifespan. Electrolytic capacitors do dry out over time. This is why some older equipment hums--the electrolytic power supply capacitors have become less effective at, well, being a capacitor. Replace them, and the hum goes away. (Please note this is not a universal panacea--there can be other problems with old gear.)
 
So, back in the 1980s and 1990s, sure, a 20 year warranty wasn't outside the realm of consideration. Add some cost at retail to cover the additional warranty work, and call it good. Yes, it will increase cost at retail, at least if you really plan on being around in 20 years, but it's not completely crazy.
 
Today, a 20-year warranty gives me the cold shivers--largely due to lead-free solder, as noted in the chapter. Will the current formulations of lead-free solder last 20 years? If they don't last 20 years, how bad will the tin whisker problem be? Just a short here and there, or thousands of shorts all over the board? Will it fail in 7 years? 10 years? 15 years? Can you add enough retail cost to deal with a possible epidemic of board swaps coming in 10-20 years? Will you have the boards to swap? Will they still be good? (After all, you're probably not going to make the same product for 20 years.) Can you add enough retail cost to simply swap products for the new model? Those are a ton of questions I don't want to worry about answering. So again, excuse me for wanting to be around in 20 years. If this was a flash in the pan, sure, give as long a warranty as you want (well, unless you want to sell the company someday.) For us, we have to be realistic. 
 
For us, I want to be kind of like the service I have gotten from Velodyne on my now 20-year-old 18" servo sub. That's a big, expensive product, with (I believe) originally a 2-year warranty. It has broken twice out of warranty, both times being something wrong with the amp module. In both cases, Velodyne provided prompt service at low cost to get the sub back on the road again (including the latest break, 2 years ago, when I asked them if it was simply time to buy another, given the age of the product.) I completely understand the original length of the warranty (it is a big, moving thing that I'm sure gets a lot of abuse in home theater environments), and I appreciate the low-cost service for a LOOOONG time after warranty. That, I think, is the right model.
 
Again, others may have different opinions. And I can always be wrong.

 

[pavement714]

   
Good question! One word answer: marketing.
 
A longer warranty gives the impression of higher overall quality and higher confidence in the product. Car companies (usually ones in trouble, or known in their past for unreliability or shoddy manufacturing) have used this strategy to help sell their new (and hopefully improved) models. Car companies who engaged in this practice are now retracting these warranties back to industry standards, probably for overall cost containment, or because in the (current) strong car sales market, long warranties are perceived as being unnecessary.
 
In audio, a 20-year warranty helps differentiate from the competition and create the perception of a higher-quality product. In the past, this wasn't really such a bad bet. I have quite a bit of Sumo and Theta gear that's 20+ years old and still working fine, though they are probably do for a re-cap soon (more on this below).
 
Back then, we were using leaded solder, so the inherent lifespan of the solder isn't a factor--20 years should be well within the capability of leaded solder. That means, in the past, the primary lifespan-determining factor for audio gear was probably the capacitor lifespan. Electrolytic capacitors do dry out over time. This is why some older equipment hums--the electrolytic power supply capacitors have become less effective at, well, being a capacitor. Replace them, and the hum goes away. (Please note this is not a universal panacea--there can be other problems with old gear.)
 
So, back in the 1980s and 1990s, sure, a 20 year warranty wasn't outside the realm of consideration. Add some cost at retail to cover the additional warranty work, and call it good. Yes, it will increase cost at retail, at least if you really plan on being around in 20 years, but it's not completely crazy.
 
Today, a 20-year warranty gives me the cold shivers--largely due to lead-free solder, as noted in the chapter. Will the current formulations of lead-free solder last 20 years? If they don't last 20 years, how bad will the tin whisker problem be? Just a short here and there, or thousands of shorts all over the board? Will it fail in 7 years? 10 years? 15 years? Can you add enough retail cost to deal with a possible epidemic of board swaps coming in 10-20 years? Will you have the boards to swap? Will they still be good? (After all, you're probably not going to make the same product for 20 years.) Can you add enough retail cost to simply swap products for the new model? Those are a ton of questions I don't want to worry about answering. So again, excuse me for wanting to be around in 20 years. If this was a flash in the pan, sure, give as long a warranty as you want (well, unless you want to sell the company someday.) For us, we have to be realistic. 
 
For us, I want to be kind of like the service I have gotten from Velodyne on my now 20-year-old 18" servo sub. That's a big, expensive product, with (I believe) originally a 2-year warranty. It has broken twice out of warranty, both times being something wrong with the amp module. In both cases, Velodyne provided prompt service at low cost to get the sub back on the road again (including the latest break, 2 years ago, when I asked them if it was simply time to buy another, given the age of the product.) I completely understand the original length of the warranty (it is a big, moving thing that I'm sure gets a lot of abuse in home theater environments), and I appreciate the low-cost service for a LOOOONG time after warranty. That, I think, is the right model.
 
Again, others may have different opinions. And I can always be wrong.

Sorry if you answered this earlier, but as a person with limited funds who just decided to buy the Gumby...you're expecting it to fail 7 years from now? Do I have an expensive piece of metal when that happens? 

 

[RickB]

Jason, so you're saying if a Schiit product fails ten years from now due to lead-free solder, Schiit will still try to service it for a fee?

 

[madwolfa]

  Sorry if you answered this earlier, but as a person with limited funds who just decided to buy the Gumby...you're expecting it to fail 7 years from now? Do I have an expensive piece of metal when that happens? 

 
He is not expecting it, but he doesn't know either... And when (if) that happens, you'd have Schiit's service department to help you with a reasonably priced out-of-warranty repair.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

 
Sorry if you answered this earlier, but as a person with limited funds who just decided to buy the Gumby...you're expecting it to fail 7 years from now? Do I have an expensive piece of metal when that happens? 

It may last 7 years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, 50 years...the point is, lead-free solder has put a big question mark on the whole issue of reliability. We don't have enough data to know what its actual lifespan will be. Based on limited data, I'd expect it to be good for 10 years, which is why our maximum warranties are set at 5 (typical engineering practice--take expected failure point, divide by 2...works for lots of stuff). 
 
And this is no different than ANY other manufacturer. ROHS means EVERYTHING has to be lead-free these days. 
 
What is different about Gungnir than any other product at its price point is that it is modular and upgradable...so it is entirely possible it will have been upgraded by the time 7 years has past...and, if not, it's very easy to service. See the Velodyne example. This is realistic. Pricing a $1000 product at $3000 to cover service costs for the next 20 years is not. At least not to us.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Jason, so you're saying if a Schiit product fails ten years from now due to lead-free solder, Schiit will still try to service it for a fee?

Of course. The question is how big the fee will be. Hopefully nominal. Google "tin whiskers" and look at photos. Some of that won't be nominal. 
 
However, this cannot be overemphasized: EVERY manufacturer will be in the same predicament.
 
You can't use leaded solder anymore. Unless you're talking hobby level (which is fine, it just isn't us.)

 

[Jason Stoddard]

If you're really bored, some more info on lead-free solder:
 
Long and fairly negative: http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/reference/tech_papers/2011-kostic-pb-free.pdf
 
Short and fairly positive: https://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/Supplier%20Content/tt-electronics-welwyn-985/pdf/tt-electronics-whisker-report.pdf?
 
In short, we're using an ISO9001 PCB assembly house with the latest and greatest alloys. We're doing what we can.

 

[FrivolsListener]

Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Today, a 20-year warranty gives me the cold shivers--largely due to lead-free solder, as noted in the chapter.
 

 
What I worry about is all the electronics I now own that depends on flash memory.  Flash doesn't remember forever, so my Gumby may not die from tin whiskers someday, but it will probably die from a checksum error in its firmware.
 
In a different hobby -- ham radio -- I own a Ten-Tec RX-340, which was made originally as a response to a government request for proposal.  It uses old-skool PROMs for its firmware, probably for that very reason.
 
It will be a shame.  My 70s vintage Rotel keeps going strong, and my 80s vintage CD player keeps on going, and, of course, my 50s vintage RX-392 still keeps going.

 

[crazychile]

 

  I'm really curious, what would be a (potentially) good reason for offering a 20 year warranty? Bragging rights? Pride?
Is it a positive enough selling feature to offset the long term repair costs?
Not that we're naming any names; just curious what your thoughts on that are.
 

 
I'll name names.  As mentioned before, Bryston offers a 20 year warranty on their analog gear. For them, I believe it was born out of fact that they started building Pro level gear, the kind of stuff that needs to be able to take the abuse of the road, and keep on ticking, as well as being quickly and easily repaired.  I'm not sure about the later stuff, but my Bryston 3B had pluggable channel modules, quick and easy removal for return/repair.  I think pride in their product also plays a factor, and I'm sure they must have run the numbers and determined that they wouldn't be exposed if the failure rate trend of the previous years continued going forward.   
 
In the beginning, the 20 year warranty was offered retroactively too, and transferrable to whom ever owned it.  I bought a .5b preamp, used, that I sent in for repairs probably 10 years later, for a scratchy pot, and they changed that, the power cord, and all the input jacks (because the gold plating was getting crufty) and all it cost me was shipping one way, and a replacement shipping box($10 if I recall, because I didnt have the original).  When I had to downsize, (thus the headphone focus) I think I got at least as much as I paid for both pieces (both purchased used) and they were both at least 25 years old.. 
 
They are still one of the best no BS audio companies around.  Not cheap by any means, but value for dollar, and still Canadian.. (Go Great White North!)  

 
I used to work for a Bryston dealer and owned a 3B ST amp and BP5 preamp. It was great stuff for the money, and I can confirm that 20 years ago when you sent in a piece for repair, they brought it up to the latest version specs if it wasn't a major design change.
 
But that 3B ST amp I owned was around $1500 retail at the time. The latest version Bryston makes is $4,295.00 retail (according to Audio Advisor). The new amp may be better, but it's approaching almost 3x what the model 20 years ago cost. Is the amp now really in another class sonically, or did Bryston figure out they were going to lose money near the old price point?
 
Anyone remember Curtis Mathes televisions from back in the 80's? They had a really long warranty - I think it was 3 or 5 years, but they cost double what other comparable sets did. Working in the industry at the time, I know that they rebranded sets from Zenith and a few others. There was no difference in quality. But they gave the illusion that they were better by making the customer pay  almost double to cover repairs. The company  eventually became the K-mart house brand. So maybe people caught on, or there were other factors that contributed to their demise.

 

[MrSlim]

   
I used to work for a Bryston dealer and owned a 3B ST amp and BP5 preamp. It was great stuff for the money, and I can confirm that 20 years ago when you sent in a piece for repair, they brought it up to the latest version specs if it wasn't a major design change.
 
But that 3B ST amp I owned was around $1500 retail at the time. The latest version Bryston makes is $4,295.00 retail (according to Audio Advisor). The new amp may be better, but it's approaching almost 3x what the model 20 years ago cost. Is the amp now really in another class sonically, or did Bryston figure out they were going to lose money near the old price point?
 
Anyone remember Curtis Mathes televisions from back in the 80's? They had a really long warranty - I think it was 3 or 5 years, but they cost double what other comparable sets did. Working in the industry at the time, I know that they rebranded sets from Zenith and a few others. There was no difference in quality. But they gave the illusion that they were better by making the customer pay  almost double to cover repairs. The company  eventually became the K-mart house brand. So maybe people caught on, or there were other factors that contributed to their demise.

I remember them..  didn't know they were just rebranded, and always wondered what happened to them.. Mostly I expect "Japan" happened to them..  

 

[valiant66]

  --snip--
 
My 70s vintage Rotel keeps going strong, and my 80s vintage CD player keeps on going, and, of course, my 50s vintage RX-392 still keeps going.

 
My early vintage CD player finally gave up the ghost. Made by a now-defunct company, there was no way to get it serviced. Predating digital-out, it's still the most functional and efficient pure-player of CDs I've ever owned. Every CD player I've owned since then has fallen short in at least two and often many more ways. It even had sub-track seeking, an abandoned early ¿Redbook? standard meant to allow classical CDs a seek function to jump to significant movements within continuous classical tracks. I never found a CD that incorporated it, though.
 
Curious, I googled RX-392. Clearly, since you say "50s" you don't mean the Yamaha surround receiver or the Dell laptop. Are you talking about a Rolex watch, or is there an antique piece of hi-fi google can't find?

 

[Ali-Pacha]

 
Of course. The question is how big the fee will be. Hopefully nominal. 

Will you accept good ol' vintage whiskies for a payment ? 

Ali

 

[Armaegis]

   
I used to work for a Bryston dealer and owned a 3B ST amp and BP5 preamp. It was great stuff for the money, and I can confirm that 20 years ago when you sent in a piece for repair, they brought it up to the latest version specs if it wasn't a major design change.
 
But that 3B ST amp I owned was around $1500 retail at the time. The latest version Bryston makes is $4,295.00 retail (according to Audio Advisor). The new amp may be better, but it's approaching almost 3x what the model 20 years ago cost. Is the amp now really in another class sonically, or did Bryston figure out they were going to lose money near the old price point?

 
Well if you account for 20 years of inflation, that puts us at maybe $2.5k ish? Two design generations since then, let's say 20% bump each time... puts us around 3.6k. Add fluff for warranty and voodoo and the distributor/vendor network... doesn't seem too far off the mark honestly. Not cheap, but doesn't seem crazy.