[valiant66]

Boy howdy, I seem to be verbose today.
 
I was just canoeing the interweb (that's what we do, up here in the Frozen North) and noticed that well-regarded entry-level turntable manufacturer U-Turn Audio feature a Magni (or Magni 2) headphone amp in one of their product shots.
 
The site: http://uturnaudio.com/
The page: http://uturnaudio.com/turntables/ (it's the last image in the lightbox at the bottom of the page)
The image:
 

 

[RCBinTN]

   
I was doing some work for Bosch Automotive near the Schwarzwald (Black Forest) about 10 years back. Used to go to work at 6 AM, finish by 3 PM, go biking till 7, then drink lots of beer (Bitterbier) till 11. Every single day. Then do 20 mile treks every weekend. The best single 3 years of my life!! No TV, movies. Just outside all the time. Treks, beer and concerts. Basically spoiled cities for me.

 
Oh that just sounds delightful.  The schwarzwald is a wonderful place.  Those who may be considering a trip to Germany should visit there...it's more enjoyable than all the cities IMO (except perhaps München). But, I reco that you bypass the Bitterbier and just ask for a pils.  You won't be disappointed.
 
Prost -
RCB

 

[DougD]

 
I was away for a while and missed the sidebar into 32-channel ADC-DAC pro gear, thank goodness, since that's not what this thread is focussed around.  << snip snip >>
 
And asking why anyone would bother making a better non-SD ADC when there's so many adequate and even some good ones out there already is exactly like asking why Schiit would bother making a better non-SD DAC when there's so many adequate and even some good ones out there already. If you don't know the answer to that by now, you haven't gone back far enough in this thread (hint: start with Chapter 33).
 
Jason said Schiit is going to be focussing a little more on 2-channel gear in the next year(s?). TWO channel gear, note.
 
Now, let's revisit that throwaway question Baldr asked: "How much is it worth for a user to digitize their vinyl?"  << snip snip >>
 
So I don't need a combination Mani + ADC, I just need an ADC. Spreading the cost of one over 100 albums at $5 an album, or even $10 per those 70 hours, means that a $500 - $700 multibit ADC would make sense. If we take Baldr at his word that it's "Easy to do for Bifrost money or less" then a $400 multibit DAC would be a bargain, and one in the Modi / Magni / Mani price range would be a screaming deal. And despite Baldr's distain for the technology, at this price range and intended use the product would have to output to USB, and use RCA inputs. And although I'm happy keeping my music at Redbook quality, I'd want the option to record at a higher resolution so I have room for a hiss/click/noise-removal pass before outputting the final version. Since it's Schiit after all, maybe a headphone jack for monitoring... (but that's not as critical in ripping LPs as it is in making a live recording).
 
 << snip snip >>
 
Which brings us to Baldr's followup question, "How many people really need that?"
 
 << snip snip >>
 
But I truly believe a 2-channel multibit ADC for Bifrost money would absolutely sell to the home-audio, LP-ripping crowd. And one for Mani money would fly out the door.

 
Spot on. Great analysis & commentary.

 

[valiant66]

Final post for today, I promise.
 
After declaring the Ragnarock to be Component of the Year for 2015, C|Net's Audiophiliac has been using it as the benchmark for every amp he's reviewed since.
 
So far, nothing has beat it.
 
Audiophiliac articles.

 

[AudioMan612]

  Traditional power amplifiers do not have volume controls and only have one input. A Preamp allows Multipe sources to be connected and switched as well as give you volume control, many are active so they may help ( or hurt the sound).
 
Integrated amplifiers that are popular today combine Tuners, Preamps and Amplfiers in one. When you go to Best buy or the like you very rarely see them (preamps) for sale because most people like the all in one integrated option.
 
Now to head off the possible questions about the Valhalla is not a true preamp questions.
 
This particular Emotiva amp does have a volume control and 2 inputs, but I leave it on maximum volume and use it strictly as a power amp.
( issues with another one i wont get into here is why I ended up with this one). I use the Valhalla's Volume control. For me using the Valhalla as a preamp is really because I wanted a little of the tube warmth as such is my personal preference. I don't care much for cold, flat music. I don't find it enjoyable. I use a sys for switching. This is My Hodge Podge way of doing it and it works well for me at this point.

Technically an integrated amplifier with a tuner is receiver.

A preamp is where everything is brought up to line-level if it isn't already (a phono stage is technically a preamp itself, while many preamps have one built-in).  As stated, a preamp is where your source selection, volume, tone, and balance controls are.  While most digital sources are line-level, sometimes there is enough impedance in long cable runs that an active preamp is necessary before power amplification.  Above all, all of your sources will come into your preamp at whatever levels, and will leave at line-level for power amplicfication, whether that power amp or amps are in the same chassis or not.

As with anything in audio or really electronics in general, the higher-end stuff tends to have as much separate as possible.  In addition to convenience, separates tend to be more expensive, especially once you start getting into monoblocks, bi-amping or tri-amping (using separate amplifiers for different frequency ranges, or just plain having more headroom by driving your woofers and tweeters with separate amps), separate CD transports from DAC's, etc.

 

 

[Byronb]

   
Let me try to explain it in a different way.
 
Audio engineers know that there is as much art as science in what they're doing.  They're also there to make a product, whether a live performance or a recording.  There are usually time pressures involved.
 
This all leads to a certain level of pragmatism. Some examples:
 
1. In a live venue, changes to microphones, acoustics, and DSP/EQ are not subtle.  They are the heavy weight tools used to 'fix' the sound of the venue and performance.  
 
Any differences in amps, cables, and DACs/ADCs are masked by these much more powerful tools.  And you can't fix venue issues by futzing around at the edges of sonic perception.
 
2. In a recording / mastering setting, there is usually a DAW in which there will be liberal use of all sorts of manipulation of the sound (EQ, filters, compression, general mixing of the tracks.)
 
Want more bass? Crank up gain on the bass track.  Want more detail? Crank up the presence region in the EQ.  
 
3. They all know that there is no absolute standard in audio because the transducers are flawed.  
 
Microphones and loudspeakers are blatantly non-linear and distorted compared to everything else in the chain.  Swapping out one mic model for another is going to affect the sound more (it's not subtle) than any chipset difference in the ADC/DAC.
 
When you start to view sound as a palette that can be manipulated with a Swiss army knife of tools, you start to put technologies on a spectrum with things that are mostly transparent towards one end (cables, amps, ADCs/DACs) and things that are blatantly not transparent on the other (microphones, microphone placement, monitor speakers, EQ/DSP, gain settings, other aspect of the mix).
 
The major levers to move something from "doesn't sound good" to "sounds good" are at the "not transparent" end of the tools spectrum.  The mostly transparent stuff is viewed as plumbing.
 
This is a very different mindset than that of most consumers, for whom music is a received good and are concerned only about reproduction.  This may be one reason why many audiophiles disdain EQ -- they view it as tainting the recording, of diluting the truth.
 
Audio engineers, on the other hand, know the recording is an act of artifice to begin with, an artistic interpretation of the truth.

Awesome post. I really appreciate you r perspective on the engineering side.
 
I would add that we as audio enthusiast, do not possess the tools, nor are capable of being present in the early stages of the recording process. We are at the consumption stage. We are left to consume what the engineer has created. Some of us want to recreate sound exactly as the engineer mastered it. Some want the sound to sound "good" to them. But, each of us as consumers have a very different set of tools from the engineer.
 
Just like the engineer, some of us care for the minutia and some don't. The difference is the engineer that obsesses over the minutia is known as a genius. The audio enthusiast that obsesses over gear is generally consider off his rocker...

 

 

[AudioMan612]

By the way, for those people who are interested in doing vinyl rips, check out the interface or signal processing sections on a site such as Sweetwater or look for vinyl rip torrents and just look at the gear mentioned.  Many people who do vinyl rips list the equipment that they used.  You'll need to run it through a translator to look at it in English, rutracker.org is a great source of vinyl rips.  To be clear, I'm not encouraging torrenting albums, but just to look at the equipment used to make vinyl rips.

For example, here are some 2 channel ADC's that would work great for vinyl rips (you'll still need a phono preamp of course):

Antelope Audio Pure 2
Lynx Hilo with Thunderbolt
RME ADI-2
Benchmark ADC1 USB
Crane Song HEDD 192
Burl Audio B2 Bomber ADC (the input level selector is cool in that the unit is designed to behave like analog tape, so if you hit it hard, it naturally saturates if that's the sound you want)

 

[DougD]

partial snipplet of post by AudioMan612 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For example, here are some 2 channel ADC's that would work great for vinyl rips (you'll still need a phono preamp of course):

Antelope Audio Pure 2 
Lynx Hilo with Thunderbolt
RME ADI-2
Benchmark ADC1 USB
Crane Song HEDD 192
Burl Audio B2 Bomber ADC 

 
Current prices on the above-listed ADCs from Sweetwater:

$2195 - Antelope Audio Pure 2 
$2595 - Lynx Hilo with Thunderbolt    (w/ USB instead of Thunderbolt = $2295)
$ 949 - RME ADI-2
$1795 - Benchmark ADC1 USB
$3599 - Crane Song HEDD 192
$2249 - Burl Audio B2 Bomber ADC 
 
If AudioMan612 has given us a reasonable sample of some of the quality ADC contenders, which I'm sure he has, it just proves that there's a real market void for a Schiit-quality A2D converter at a Bifrost type price. And probably a market for a MB unit at an Yggy level price too.
 
As a regular audio consumer who knows nothing about the pro market, let me add this ... if I was planning on buying a $2000+ ADC from a list of these and similar products, I could very very easily get frozen in analysis paralysis trying to make a decision, and never decide. Some of those brands undoubtedly have fine reputations in their circles, but Benchmark is the only one I personally am really familiar with. Yes, I'm ignorant, but it can take a lot of time and research to become un-ignorant. But if Schiit Audio has an entry in the list of contenders ... BINGO, easy decision for me. 
 
I'll shut up now, and quit piling on. Mike and Jason know there's some interest in an A2D product, and it's rightfully up to them to decide if (a) it's something they want to spend their time on, and (b) if the market potential is worthwhile. 

 

[ScottFree]

partial snipplet of post by AudioMan612 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For example, here are some 2 channel ADC's that would work great for vinyl rips (you'll still need a phono preamp of course):

Antelope Audio Pure 2 
Lynx Hilo with Thunderbolt
RME ADI-2
Benchmark ADC1 USB
Crane Song HEDD 192
Burl Audio B2 Bomber ADC 

 
Current prices on the above-listed ADCs from Sweetwater:

$2195 - Antelope Audio Pure 2 
$2595 - Lynx Hilo with Thunderbolt    (w/ USB instead of Thunderbolt = $2295)
$ 949 - RME ADI-2
$1795 - Benchmark ADC1 USB
$3599 - Crane Song HEDD 192
$2249 - Burl Audio B2 Bomber ADC 
 
If AudioMan612 has given us a reasonable sample of some of the quality ADC contenders, which I'm sure he has, it just proves that there's a real market void for a Schiit-quality A2D converter at a Bifrost type price. And probably a market for a MB unit at an Yggy level price too.
 
As a regular audio consumer who knows nothing about the pro market, let me add this ... if I was planning on buying a $2000+ ADC from a list of these and similar products, I could very very easily get frozen in analysis paralysis trying to make a decision, and never decide. Some of those brands undoubtedly have fine reputations in their circles, but Benchmark is the only one I personally am really familiar with. Yes, I'm ignorant, but it can take a lot of time and research to become un-ignorant. But if Schiit Audio has an entry in the list of contenders ... BINGO, easy decision for me. 
 
I'll shut up now, and quit piling on. Mike and Jason know there's some interest in an A2D product, and it's rightfully up to them to decide if (a) it's something they want to spend their time on, and (b) if the market potential is worthwhile. 

"It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them." - Steve Jobs


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

[disastermouse]

Something about Schiit that sort of amazes me is that, while their products are all very straightforward (It does what it says on the tin), they've kept their DACs in the same form factor and included upgradability. I don't see that in consumer products in pretty much any other arena.

 

[AudioMan612]

There are also tons of cheaper products that will do the job such as the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 ($149.99), but I didn't list these because I was in a bit of a rush, and also, I figured that if we were talking archival vinyl rips, reference-quality gear would be better.

Above all, just look at computer interfaces (interface is what A/D and D/A converters are called in pro audio).  Anything with 2 line inputs (one per channel; most things in the recording world are mono) will do the job.  In addition, those of you who game will now have XLR inputs with microphone preamps at your disposal, so you'll no longer be limited to using overpriced USB microphones.  You can get yourself a Shure SM57 of SM58 and have a mic that will last practically forever.

Lastly, you should be aware of the difference between microphone, instrument, and line levels.  Line level inputs are what you need.  You can learn the differences with this two minute read.

 

[bigro]

   
 
 
I was away for a while and missed the sidebar into 32-channel ADC-DAC pro gear, thank goodness, since that's not what this thread is focussed around. The primary reason the pro gear uses Sigma-Deta ADCs is because it's cheap, especially when you need one on each channel (so that pro gear referenced above has a minimum of 32 ADC-DACs on board), and the job they do is good enough for rock'n'roll. (But maybe not jazz... . There's the added cost that pro gear needs to be able to survive being roughly thrown onto a tour bus or rig every night and driven over the mountains or deserts in an uninsulated dusty compartment.
 
And asking why anyone would bother making a better non-SD ADC when there's so many adequate and even some good ones out there already is exactly like asking why Schiit would bother making a better non-SD DAC when there's so many adequate and even some good ones out there already. If you don't know the answer to that by now, you haven't gone back far enough in this thread (hint: start with Chapter 33).
 
Jason said Schiit is going to be focussing a little more on 2-channel gear in the next year(s?). TWO channel gear, note.
 
Now, let's revisit that throwaway question Baldr asked: "How much is it worth for a user to digitize their vinyl?"
 
Lemme see - a quick thumbnail count of my wall o' vinyl and let's guess I've got a smallish collection of 1,200 albums. At least 50% are played to crap and not worth recording due to surface noise, so that's 600 left. Of those, 2/3 have jumped the digital divide so I can buy them on CD if I want, leaving 200. Of those 200, let's say I'm interested in adding about half of them to my iTunes collection, so that's about 100 records.
 
Acknowledging that albums have to be recorded in real time (no hi-speed dubbing cassettes here!), and that each record averages 40 minutes for both sides, that's around 70 hours of my life. For an investment like that (time is the most valuable thing we own) I want to make sure I do the job right the first time so I don't have to repeat it and I want to do it to the best quality I can afford.
 
I already have multiple phono stages in the house, but if I didn't the Mani does a more than adequate job, not only according to Stereophile, but according to pro-sound guys I know that love it, use it, recommend it, and install it for their client base.
 
So I don't need a combination Mani + ADC, I just need an ADC. Spreading the cost of one over 100 albums at $5 an album, or even $10 per those 70 hours, means that a $500 - $700 multibit ADC would make sense. If we take Baldr at his word that it's "Easy to do for Bifrost money or less" then a $400 multibit DAC would be a bargain, and one in the Modi / Magni / Mani price range would be a screaming deal. And despite Baldr's distain for the technology, at this price range and intended use the product would have to output to USB, and use RCA inputs. And although I'm happy keeping my music at Redbook quality, I'd want the option to record at a higher resolution so I have room for a hiss/click/noise-removal pass before outputting the final version. Since it's Schiit after all, maybe a headphone jack for monitoring... (but that's not as critical in ripping LPs as it is in making a live recording).
 
Moving up the scale, a full-on GAIN I quality ADC could happily live in the $1,200 - $2,200 range of the Gugnir Mulitbit or Yggdrasil. Here is where you have balanced inputs and AES outputs alongside the RCA inputs and toslink, S/PDIF and USB outputs. Perhaps that's the Gugnir level, and the Yggi level adds multiple inputs (not multiple channels, still just 2-channel), with FireWire and Thunderbolt output.
 
In my case, the $2,200 TOTL Schiit ADC would translate to $33 / hr. for my paltry 100 LP conversion: more than I earn an hour right now and not worth it. But it would make sense for someone with a much larger collection and plenty of time, or those who use it professionally.
 
Which brings us to Baldr's followup question, "How many people really need that?"
 
Well, without doing a survey (and we know what Jason thinks of those... I would say that the market for a Mani / Modi price range ADC would pretty much be the same as or larger than the market for the Mani itself, numbers Schiit already has on hand and which Baldr characterized as unexpectedly healthy. From there, it's pretty simple to use the rule of thumb: double the price, halve the sales. Until you get to the TOTL product: Jason has also said that demand for the Yggi exceeded their expectations and the first 2,000 sold out almost right away.
 
I know Baldr and Jason both have said they have no interest in getting into the pro audio gear: it's not their bailiwick. At $2,200 they're definately going to have pro audio guys looking their way, and that may be more trouble than it's worth. It might be worth it however if they develop the GAIN I technology for the expensive model, then trickle it down to the point where it more than pays for the R&D as was done with Schiit's multibit DACs.
 
But I truly believe a 2-channel multibit ADC for Bifrost money would absolutely sell to the home-audio, LP-ripping crowd. And one for Mani money would fly out the door.

I am waving a handful of cash around like am at errrrr.. the local umm fashion show.

 

[Kopdr]

Perhaps I can go back to posts 9617 and 9633 and the DS and Multibit discussion and ask for some feedback.
 
I own the Agaard 2 and a Bifrost 4490. My music collection. I listen to my music using Foobar and Asio.
 
Over the years I experienced a couple of "wow" moments. The first was when I included a Music Streamer II in my setup which was MSII > Marantz Amp > Sennheiser HD480 Classic II headphones. This was a long lasting "wow" and worth every penny.
 
The next "wow" moment was when I bought the Asgaard 2 to replace the Marantz Amp. Another extended "Wow"
 
My Sennheisers were now 20 years old and issues with the cable and pin connectors meant a change to Sennheiser HD598's not a "wow" moment but different and not as in your face as the 480's.
 
This was soon followed by the Bifrost 4490 and I wish I could say that this was another "Wow" moment. The Bifrost is certainly an improvement on the MSII and the detail and soundstage is definitely better but the bang for the buck factor was not in the same range as the two previous upgrades.
 
Reading posts 9617 and 9633 by Baldr left the impression that he was dismissive of DS Dac's. Is this the reason for the underwhelmed reaction to my DS Bifrost?
 
What I am looking for is feedback from those who have upgraded to the Multibit Bifrost. Has the upgrade been a "Wow" moment and worth the expense? I'd just hate to have spent the money and find that the improvement is marginal. Baldr clearly thinks that the difference is substantial. He has the engineering knowledge to prove that it is technically better but I wonder to what degree it translates to in use performance. I have very good hearing especially as far as Pitch and Tone is concerned. Is the tonal range of the Multibit better? Is the soundstage bigger?
 
Now, before the loyal army rushes to the defence, I am not unhappy with my Bifrost! - I simply wonder whether the difference between the DS Bifrost and The MB Bifrost as experienced by users justifies the (for me) not insignificant cost of upgrading.
 
PS I still have 100+ LP's to convert and add my vote for a Schiit ADC.

 

[Armaegis]

 
My closest supermarket is a half an hour away.  I look out over a roughly 10 x 5 mile valley with maybe 60 houses or so, behind me just hills, down a crooked dirt road.  I always wanted a house where I could take a leak in the back yard - here I can do it in the front.

 
Ah, so it's number one in front and number two in the back then. Weeding and gardening respectively.

 

[valiant66]

  There are also tons of cheaper products that will do the job such as the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 ($149.99), but I didn't list these because I was in a bit of a rush, and also, I figured that if we were talking archival vinyl rips, reference-quality gear would be better.

Above all, just look at computer interfaces (interface is what A/D and D/A converters are called in pro audio).  Anything with 2 line inputs (one per channel; most things in the recording world are mono) will do the job.  In addition, those of you who game will now have XLR inputs with microphone preamps at your disposal, so you'll no longer be limited to using overpriced USB microphones.  You can get yourself a Shure SM57 of SM58 and have a mic that will last practically forever.
--snip--

 
This brings us back to pro gear, though. The Focusrite 2i2 has inputs for 1/4" and balanced mics but no RCAs. It has 48v phantom power for the mics. It includes a headphone amp, and volume control for that. It has USB and 1/4" line level out, but again no RCAs. A kazillion functions, all for $150 - in other words, Mani money. 
 
Eliminate the cost of those fancy inputs and phantom power in favour of RCAs, eliminate the headphone amp and control circuitry, leave off the analog out, and leave out the markup of a middleman and you've got room to put more money into higher-quality ADC circuitry in its purest form - one pair of RCA inputs, input clipping LEDs, one USB output.
 
Level control is provided by your preamp (or a SYS) and the clipping LEDs, monitoring is provided by your computer's output. Most of your money goes into the ADC itself, and not the addons or markups or pro requirements like phantom power.
 
For example:
 
A possible audio chain: turntable -> Mani phono stage -> SYS volume control -> Schiit Entrylevel ADC -> computer + recording software -> [headphones or] -> Modi DAC -> Magni amp -> [headphones] or [powered speakers] or [traditional stereo].
 
I am ignoring issues of latency, because they don't really apply when you're converting an LP, unlike when you need to be syncing a vocal track with instruments in real time. I.e. we're not using this for pro stuff.
 
That is super, super minimalist, of course. Most people would want level control right in the box, eliminating the necessity of the SYS or more accurately, embedding it into the ADC, and some people would want the phono pre in the box too. But see what I did there: Mani + SYS + SchiitADC + Modi + Magni...
 
Would that not be the cutest stack ever?