Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Apr 14, 2022 at 9:15 AM Post #91,096 of 151,042
+1 to that. The LISST 2 is very interesting indeed.
I hope to check some of those out soon. I have some of the OG Lissts and plenty of 6SN7 tubes for comparison, I may be able to do a blind listen and compare them with 25 of the tubes my local group prefers. I am hoping for more detail at high frequencies, the OG covered lows and mids pretty well IMHO.
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 9:22 AM Post #91,097 of 151,042
This is true of ALL Schiit gear. I bought a cheap generic remote for Freya S that only has buttons for volume, mute and input select. The remote that came with Freya has a button to change the output gain which IMO is a terrible button to have on a remote with nearly unreadable icons.
Just to play devil's advocate for a second…
I only ever need the icons for the first day or so of use until muscle memory kicks in. After that initial phase, I never notice them again.
So, at least for me personally, I'd rather have small icons on my gear that look sleek and well proportioned from a product design and general esthetics point of view than something oversized that just makes the gear look unnecessarily ( <- highly subjective, of course) busy.

I'm a sucker for the Bauhaus school of product design. Less is always more for me, and I know that I'm in somewhat of a minority on that front.
But still.
Just my two cents… 😁
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 9:23 AM Post #91,098 of 151,042
I wasn't aware they were bringing the LISST's back and in a GEN 2 format. I have OG LISST'S for my MJ2 and LYR 3.
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 9:31 AM Post #91,099 of 151,042
The goal of a speaker is not to change the sound of the original instrument with its own wood (or any other way). The goal is to reproduce what the original sounded like.
Yeah, that's the theory. But there are often wide gaps between theory and practice. (And not just in speaker design, I've found.)
There's a guy at the local farmers market who sells old physical media - he recently bumped up the price of cassettes from $1 to $3. CDs are still a buck.
.
If he's taking advantage of Hipsters, good for him. :smiling_imp:
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 9:32 AM Post #91,100 of 151,042
I wasn't aware they were bringing the LISST's back and in a GEN 2 format. I have OG LISST'S for my MJ2 and LYR 3.
@sam6550a did the early work of testing and trying the OG LISST's in one of my amps, and then loaned me a couples so I could try them myself in various amps. Jason has talked about them and offered to send some my way.
 
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Apr 14, 2022 at 9:41 AM Post #91,101 of 151,042
This is true of ALL Schiit gear. I bought a cheap generic remote for Freya S that only has buttons for volume, mute and input select. The remote that came with Freya has a button to change the output gain which IMO is a terrible button to have on a remote with nearly unreadable icons.
Any help on a compatible generic remote for Freya S would be appreciated @Roy G. Biv
I also only require volume, mute and input select.
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 9:42 AM Post #91,102 of 151,042
Just to play devil's advocate for a second…
I only ever need the icons for the first day or so of use until muscle memory kicks in. After that initial phase, I never notice them again.
So, at least for me personally, I'd rather have small icons on my gear that look sleek and well proportioned from a product design and general esthetics point of view than something oversized that just makes the gear look unnecessarily ( <- highly subjective, of course) busy.

I'm a sucker for the Bauhaus school of product design. Less is always more for me, and I know that I'm in somewhat of a minority on that front.
But still.
Just my two cents… 😁
I would agree with everything you said if I was the only one using the equipment. I've already had my young niece and my father each press the gain button instead of volume. The sudden jump in volume was startling for everyone in the room. :)
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 9:45 AM Post #91,103 of 151,042
I would agree with everything you said if I was the only one using the equipment. I've already had my young niece and my father each press the gain button instead of volume. The sudden jump in volume was startling for everyone in the room. :)
I will be the only person using the remote, so maybe I can live with the one supplied by Schiit. :relaxed:
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 9:48 AM Post #91,104 of 151,042
Any help on a compatible generic remote for Freya S would be appreciated @Roy G. Biv
I also only require volume, mute and input select.
Of course! Here's what I purchased. It's a learning remote which took me about 90 seconds to program. I programmed the channel +/- to control input.
Ugly but cheap.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125151299290?hash=item1d239946da:g:WygAAOSwBPNiDFPz

I can hear @ArmchairPhilosopher groaning/wincing from halfway across the country. :beyersmile:
 
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Apr 14, 2022 at 9:54 AM Post #91,105 of 151,042
62610277-DC9F-454D-B9B0-4D3FFEB04570.jpeg
I would agree with everything you said if I was the only one using the equipment. I've already had my young niece and my father each press the gain button instead of volume. The sudden jump in volume was startling for everyone in the room. :)

You just need a slight modification.
 
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Apr 14, 2022 at 10:01 AM Post #91,107 of 151,042
I hope to check some of those out soon. I have some of the OG Lissts and plenty of 6SN7 tubes for comparison, I may be able to do a blind listen and compare them with 25 of the tubes my local group prefers. I am hoping for more detail at high frequencies, the OG covered lows and mids pretty well IMHO.
The fact that Schiit sold them as "tube-options" is completely understandable, and that they plug into tube sockets was out of necessity.
But both of those points are what killed that product, if you ask me, because this created a certain set of expectations that missed the point of what those LISST are.
I admire Jason's marketing skills, but this one time, a product failed not because it wasn't a good product, but because the marketing kinda set it up for failure.

LISST kind of look like tubes, and they were sold as something like a tube, but they aren't tubes. Maybe I'm wrong with this and LISST (v1) existed only because Jason explicitly wanted to design a solid-state circuit that sounded as close to a tube as possible. If that's the case, then the marketing was on point and the product failed on its own merit.

But here's how I see LISST (v1):
They aren't tubes. And they're not meant to replace them. They're also not supposed to sound exactly like them. Because why would they?! They aren't tubes! If you want tube sound, buy tubes! *
They also don't sound like your usual solid-state. They're not supposed to sound like your usual solid-state, either. And why should they?! If you want that classic solid-state sound, buy a solid-state (pre-)amp!

I see LISST as a third product category.
They offer a third kind of sound that sits in between solid-state and tubes. They're dead-quiet, they don't suffer from microphonics, they're not nearly as susceptible to RF interference as tubes are, their performance characteristics remain stable even over a long time of use, there's no need for matching, and they cost just a fraction of what a good tube costs.
They also sound more pleasant than solid-state. They're warmer, not as harsh; there's no hint of that "pins and needles" level of detail that I know a lot of people love about solid-state, but that I can't stand. They also offer a much fuller bass response and a much richer holographic soundstage than almost all of the solid-state (pre-)amps that I've listened to.

To me, they are in almost every regard a superior product to both, solid-state and tubes. They sit in a third, separate category for me. And I truly believe that if they had been marketed as such, they would have been more successful. Their product page didn't explicitly state that you should look at them as tubes, of course, but it certainly didn't try to establish them as a (founding) member of that third category either. The fact that they (by necessity) looked like tubes and dropped into tube sockets didn't help with this misconception, either. And so people bought them expecting them to be more or less exactly like tubes – and were (understandably) disappointed that they weren't.

LISST are no tubes. And they aren't solid-state. (Technically, they are, of course. But I'm talking sound profile here.) They sit in their own little corner. And if they can be marketed as such, I think they will turn into one of Schiit's most successful products. Especially if they, some day, can come in flavors. Then you could buy a Schiit (pre-)amp that comes with a proprietary LISST socket that can be licensed by third party LISST makers, and you roll your own sound, much as you do today with tubes, but with none of the "downsides" (for me) of real tubes, but a much more euphonic sound and oodles more flexibility than you get from classic solid-state.

* Granted, buying tubes gets more difficult with time. It's sad that that's what it took to get LISST a second shot in the market. Also: More LISST for the likes like me means more tubes left on the market for you. Win-win. :)
 
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Apr 14, 2022 at 10:31 AM Post #91,108 of 151,042
They say you need to run these in pairs but the post office doesn’t seem to think so.
B325DB06-BAB4-4DE9-ACF5-CA2DEB302105.jpeg
Not the ideal placement but I live in an apartment and it’s what I have to work with until I move again.

Itching to hear your impressions of how the Tyrs compare to any of the best vintage Yamaha amps you've heard, like the B2!
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 10:38 AM Post #91,109 of 151,042
The fact that Schiit sold them as "tube-options" is completely understandable, and that they plug into tube sockets was out of necessity.
But both of those points are what killed that product, if you ask me, because this created a certain set of expectations that missed the point of what those LISST are.
I admire Jason's marketing skills, but this one time, a product failed not because it wasn't a good product, but because the marketing kinda set it up for failure.

LISST kind of look like tubes, and they were sold as something like a tube, but they aren't tubes. Maybe I'm wrong with this and LISST (v1) existed only because Jason explicitly wanted to design a solid-state circuit that sounded as close to a tube as possible. If that's the case, then the marketing was on point and the product failed on its own merit.

But here's how I see LISST (v1):
They aren't tubes. And they're not meant to replace them. They're also not supposed to sound exactly like them. Because why would they?! They aren't tubes! If you want tube sound, buy tubes! *
They also don't sound like your usual solid-state. They're not supposed to sound like your usual solid-state, either. And why should they?! If you want that classic solid-state sound, buy a solid-state (pre-)amp!

I see LISST as a third product category.
They offer a third kind of sound that sits in between solid-state and tubes. They're dead-quiet, they don't suffer from microphonics, they're not nearly as susceptible to RF interference as tubes are, their performance characteristics remain stable even over a long time of use, there's no need for matching, and they cost just a fraction of what a good tube costs.
They also sound more pleasant than solid-state. They're warmer, not as harsh; there's no hint of that "pins and needles" level of detail that I know a lot of people love about solid-state, but that I can't stand. They also offer a much fuller bass response and a much richer holographic soundstage than almost all of the solid-state (pre-)amps that I've listened to.

To me, they are in almost every regard a superior product to both, solid-state and tubes. They sit in a third, separate category for me. And I truly believe that if they had been marketed as such, they would have been more successful. Their product page didn't explicitly state that you should look at them as tubes, of course, but it certainly didn't try to establish them as a (founding) member of that third category either. The fact that they (by necessity) looked like tubes and dropped into tube sockets didn't help with this misconception, either. And so people bought them expecting them to be more or less exactly like tubes – and were (understandably) disappointed that they weren't.

LISST are no tubes. And they aren't solid-state. (Technically, they are, of course. But I'm talking sound profile here.) They sit in their own little corner. And if they can be marketed as such, I think they will turn into one of Schiit's most successful products. Especially if they, some day, can come in flavors. Then you could buy a Schiit (pre-)amp that comes with a proprietary LISST socket that can be licensed by third party LISST makers, and you roll your own sound, much as you do today with tubes, but with none of the "downsides" (for me) of real tubes, but a much more euphonic sound and oodles more flexibility than you get from classic solid-state.

* Granted, buying tubes gets more difficult with time. It's sad that that's what it took to get LISST a second shot in the market. Also: More LISST for the likes like me means more tubes left on the market for you. Win-win. :)
I have plenty of tubes.

The discussion early on was about whether the OG LISST worked in amps other than Schiit products. That is what a couple of us were looking at. Along the way we did comparisons as I hope to do with the V2. Friends will not know there is a LISST V2 under test, it is purely about sound qualities.

In designing such a product you have to be careful saying it will work in any amp made, there are a couple amps I can think of that I barely trust with any tube. :ksc75smile:

It is nice to have a third option or for me a second option, I only run solid state in my home theater system, my two channel gear is all tube amps.
 
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