StimpyWan
Headphoneus Supremus
My BBQ always contains pork. If there's beef involved, it better end up as a rib eye steak...!
Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
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My BBQ always contains pork. If there's beef involved, it better end up as a rib eye steak...!
macdonjh
Headphoneus Supremus
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Brisket would make a nasty ribeye steak. Has to be bar-b-que'd.My BBQ always contains pork. If there's beef involved, it better end up as a rib eye steak...!
macdonjh
Headphoneus Supremus
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Long post warning (at least Schiit gear is used extensively)...
My experiment is to compare three versions of “In the Light” from Led Zeppelin’s Physical Grafitti. I now have a rip from the CD I bought years ago; I think before 1990. A 16 bit/ 44 kHz download of the 1990 remaster from Qobuz, and a 24 bit/ 96 kHz download also from Qobuz. Obviously, that’s one variable: differing word lengths and sample rate. To confuse things further, I haven’t researched whether or not either of the remasters used the original analog master tapes so I don’t know if my “high resolution” download is actually sampled at a high rate or only resampled old digital data.
I used three different systems for my audition:
A&K AK70 Mk II (USB out) -> Bifrost 1 -> Mjolnir 1 -> Beyerdynamic DT-880SE 600 Ohm
A&K AK70 Mk II (USB out) -> Bifrost 1 -> Mjolnir 1 -> HiFiMAN HE-500
A&K AK70 Mk II single-ended out -> 64Audio Trio
I listened to each of the three versions straight through with each system, so “original”, 1990, 2012 with the Beyerdynamic, then “original”, 1990, 2012 with the HE-500, etc. I also left the volume knob on my Mjolnir untouched (mostly) to limit the effects of different volume. I listened at higher volume than I normally do (an attempt to ensure I heard everything as well as eliminating low volume as a cause for poor bass), but I didn’t “crank it”. How’s that for a scientifically valid loudness scale?
Original
(first) I’ll call my ripped CD version “original”. My first audition was to this version with the Beyerdynamic DT-880SE; therefore, it’s my benchmark for today. Robert Plant’s vocals sounded muffled. Not wooly so much, more like he had some felt or batting between him and the microphone; like he was singing through something. Crash cymbals sounded mushy and indistinct as well. That was odd to me as the other cymbals sounded better articulated. Mid and low bass were represented as not more than a vague rumble almost not heard.
(fourth) When I switched to my HiFiMAN HE-500 cymbals sounded more defined, but the overall presentation was bright and piercing. Bass was still subdued. I thought, “chalk one up for hardware differences”.
(seventh) With my Trio (and remember, just the Trio and AK70) bass was very low in level and John Bonham’s toms sounded thin and hollow. I thought this odd because I like the Trio’s bass response. Similarly, the drone, that basso-continuo, at the beginning (and toward the end) of the song was light-weight instead of being deep and it lacked complexity. Plant’s vocals were forward and unlike the boxiness I heard most of the other times I listened he was slightly reverby this time around.
1990 remaster
(second) I was immediately able to hear more openness in vocals through the DT-880SE, as well as better definition from the cymbals. The most striking difference I heard, though, was more body and “skin” from the toms. The drums sounded quite good.
(fifth) My very first impression with my HE-500 is everything is louder. I didn’t make any specific notes about treble, but I noted that when Robert P. sang loudly the peaks were over-wrought; they sounded clipped and harsh. Also in the mids, Jimmy Page’s guitar was now louder when compared to the vocal track so his playing is more audible. I could also hear John Paul Jones more easily, but his bass had a “one note” quality. Similarly, the basso-continuo was too smooth, detail is lacking.
(eighth) This version sounded better than the “original” with my Trio, but I still found certain things lacking. Cymbal sound was improved during this remastering, but they were still somewhat splashy. Unlike through my HE-500 the peaks in Robert Plant’s singing were less objectionable. Unfortunately, Mr. Jones’ bass was still mostly MIA, but on the good side the basso-continuo got some of its rasp back.
2012 remaster
(third) So far these are the best vocals from the Beyerdynamic: clear and open. Cymbals sounded brighter and more natural as well. This time through the song I also noticed for the first time the details, the rasp, the hurdi-gurdi character of the basso-continuo in the introduction. As you have read, that became one of my touchstones for the rest of my auditioning. Overall, there are more details available in this mastering. Since there is no such thing as a free lunch, this recording is also louder and more fatiguing than the other two.
(sixth) The combination of my HE-500 and this 2012 remaster may be my favorite combination. Overall, articulation is noticeably better: there is better differentiation between the instruments so it’s easier to sort out who is doing what when everyone is playing together. The other two recordings sounded jumbled and indistinct during those passages. Cymbals were bright and detailed, the “splash” of the “original” version mostly tamed. Plant’s vocals are a bit less peaky than the 1990 remastering, but still abrasive at the end of the song. The drone at the beginning is raspy and detailed like I’ve come to expect now. John Paul’s bass is even audible and brought out of the back of the mix so I can hear what he’s doing rather than some amorphous thrumming.
(ninth) The Trio confirms the 2012 remaster is the loudest of the three. At the end it gets very loud; loud enough I turned the volume down (please mind, this was my ninth time through the song in a row…). All the good things I noted when listening with my HE-500 apply here with my Trio. I took special notice that the toms sounded like drums. I’d not made any notes of that specifically when listening to the Beyerdynamic or the HiFiMAN. Vocal peaks at the end are still sharp and harsh.
During this exercise I confirmed that listening to the same song over and over is fatiguing and does get boring no matter how much I like the song. I suppose that makes these results less than definitive. That said, the method did allow me to keep certain details under the magnifying glass and compare the different versions in rapid succession. While differences in hardware are impossible to ignore, there were a few aspects of the recordings which were noticeable: my ripped CD has muddy, veiled vocals which are improved in both remasters. Likewise, cymbals are better represented in the remasters. While the 1990 version is smoother and less fatiguing, the 2012 version has more details, more character.
Currently I am in favor of replacing at least some of my Led Zeppelin recordings with remastered versions. However, I am undecided which I’d choose. I’ll put “In the Light” back in my random mixes for a while and let it pop up from time to time and see which is “better” during more normal circumstances.
My experiment is to compare three versions of “In the Light” from Led Zeppelin’s Physical Grafitti. I now have a rip from the CD I bought years ago; I think before 1990. A 16 bit/ 44 kHz download of the 1990 remaster from Qobuz, and a 24 bit/ 96 kHz download also from Qobuz. Obviously, that’s one variable: differing word lengths and sample rate. To confuse things further, I haven’t researched whether or not either of the remasters used the original analog master tapes so I don’t know if my “high resolution” download is actually sampled at a high rate or only resampled old digital data.
I used three different systems for my audition:
A&K AK70 Mk II (USB out) -> Bifrost 1 -> Mjolnir 1 -> Beyerdynamic DT-880SE 600 Ohm
A&K AK70 Mk II (USB out) -> Bifrost 1 -> Mjolnir 1 -> HiFiMAN HE-500
A&K AK70 Mk II single-ended out -> 64Audio Trio
I listened to each of the three versions straight through with each system, so “original”, 1990, 2012 with the Beyerdynamic, then “original”, 1990, 2012 with the HE-500, etc. I also left the volume knob on my Mjolnir untouched (mostly) to limit the effects of different volume. I listened at higher volume than I normally do (an attempt to ensure I heard everything as well as eliminating low volume as a cause for poor bass), but I didn’t “crank it”. How’s that for a scientifically valid loudness scale?
Original
(first) I’ll call my ripped CD version “original”. My first audition was to this version with the Beyerdynamic DT-880SE; therefore, it’s my benchmark for today. Robert Plant’s vocals sounded muffled. Not wooly so much, more like he had some felt or batting between him and the microphone; like he was singing through something. Crash cymbals sounded mushy and indistinct as well. That was odd to me as the other cymbals sounded better articulated. Mid and low bass were represented as not more than a vague rumble almost not heard.
(fourth) When I switched to my HiFiMAN HE-500 cymbals sounded more defined, but the overall presentation was bright and piercing. Bass was still subdued. I thought, “chalk one up for hardware differences”.
(seventh) With my Trio (and remember, just the Trio and AK70) bass was very low in level and John Bonham’s toms sounded thin and hollow. I thought this odd because I like the Trio’s bass response. Similarly, the drone, that basso-continuo, at the beginning (and toward the end) of the song was light-weight instead of being deep and it lacked complexity. Plant’s vocals were forward and unlike the boxiness I heard most of the other times I listened he was slightly reverby this time around.
1990 remaster
(second) I was immediately able to hear more openness in vocals through the DT-880SE, as well as better definition from the cymbals. The most striking difference I heard, though, was more body and “skin” from the toms. The drums sounded quite good.
(fifth) My very first impression with my HE-500 is everything is louder. I didn’t make any specific notes about treble, but I noted that when Robert P. sang loudly the peaks were over-wrought; they sounded clipped and harsh. Also in the mids, Jimmy Page’s guitar was now louder when compared to the vocal track so his playing is more audible. I could also hear John Paul Jones more easily, but his bass had a “one note” quality. Similarly, the basso-continuo was too smooth, detail is lacking.
(eighth) This version sounded better than the “original” with my Trio, but I still found certain things lacking. Cymbal sound was improved during this remastering, but they were still somewhat splashy. Unlike through my HE-500 the peaks in Robert Plant’s singing were less objectionable. Unfortunately, Mr. Jones’ bass was still mostly MIA, but on the good side the basso-continuo got some of its rasp back.
2012 remaster
(third) So far these are the best vocals from the Beyerdynamic: clear and open. Cymbals sounded brighter and more natural as well. This time through the song I also noticed for the first time the details, the rasp, the hurdi-gurdi character of the basso-continuo in the introduction. As you have read, that became one of my touchstones for the rest of my auditioning. Overall, there are more details available in this mastering. Since there is no such thing as a free lunch, this recording is also louder and more fatiguing than the other two.
(sixth) The combination of my HE-500 and this 2012 remaster may be my favorite combination. Overall, articulation is noticeably better: there is better differentiation between the instruments so it’s easier to sort out who is doing what when everyone is playing together. The other two recordings sounded jumbled and indistinct during those passages. Cymbals were bright and detailed, the “splash” of the “original” version mostly tamed. Plant’s vocals are a bit less peaky than the 1990 remastering, but still abrasive at the end of the song. The drone at the beginning is raspy and detailed like I’ve come to expect now. John Paul’s bass is even audible and brought out of the back of the mix so I can hear what he’s doing rather than some amorphous thrumming.
(ninth) The Trio confirms the 2012 remaster is the loudest of the three. At the end it gets very loud; loud enough I turned the volume down (please mind, this was my ninth time through the song in a row…). All the good things I noted when listening with my HE-500 apply here with my Trio. I took special notice that the toms sounded like drums. I’d not made any notes of that specifically when listening to the Beyerdynamic or the HiFiMAN. Vocal peaks at the end are still sharp and harsh.
During this exercise I confirmed that listening to the same song over and over is fatiguing and does get boring no matter how much I like the song. I suppose that makes these results less than definitive. That said, the method did allow me to keep certain details under the magnifying glass and compare the different versions in rapid succession. While differences in hardware are impossible to ignore, there were a few aspects of the recordings which were noticeable: my ripped CD has muddy, veiled vocals which are improved in both remasters. Likewise, cymbals are better represented in the remasters. While the 1990 version is smoother and less fatiguing, the 2012 version has more details, more character.
Currently I am in favor of replacing at least some of my Led Zeppelin recordings with remastered versions. However, I am undecided which I’d choose. I’ll put “In the Light” back in my random mixes for a while and let it pop up from time to time and see which is “better” during more normal circumstances.
Timster
1000+ Head-Fier
Yup... great album, on my second listen right now.
Portnoy's drumming is sweet and Dave LaRue is no slouch on bass either.
r2muchstuff
1000+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2014
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Schiit N Music
Story / Saturday Night continued; two weeks later.
More of the same, except:
Watched two conventions.
Watched two Gulf hurricanes.
Two relatives had health concerns that involved hospitals; non covid.
Wife’s car in shop with two issues.
We are back to buying groceries two times per week.
Did not roll the Mjolnir’s two tubes.
No new Schiit.
“Well early one day the sun wouldn't shine
I was walkin' down the street not feelin' too fine
I saw two old men with a bottle between 'em
This is the song I heard them singin':
Lord preserve us and protect us,
We been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast!
Well I stopped by the steps
Where they were sittin'
And I couldn't believe
How drunk they were gettin'
I said "Old men, ya been drinking long?"
They said "Long enough
To start singin' this song":
Lord preserve us and protect us,
We been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast!
They passed me the bottle
Said "Take a little sip"
And it felt so good that I just couldn't quit
So I drank a little more, next thing I knew
There were 3 of us sittin' there singin' this tune:
Lord preserve us and protect us
We been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast!
Well one by one everybody in the town
Heard our ruckus and they all came down
And pretty soon all the streets were ringin'
With the sound of the whole town
Laughin' and singin':
Lord preserve us and protect us
We been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast!”
Stay safe
&
Enjoy the Schiit N Music
Story / Saturday Night continued; two weeks later.
More of the same, except:
Watched two conventions.
Watched two Gulf hurricanes.
Two relatives had health concerns that involved hospitals; non covid.
Wife’s car in shop with two issues.
We are back to buying groceries two times per week.
Did not roll the Mjolnir’s two tubes.
No new Schiit.
“Well early one day the sun wouldn't shine
I was walkin' down the street not feelin' too fine
I saw two old men with a bottle between 'em
This is the song I heard them singin':
Lord preserve us and protect us,
We been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast!
Well I stopped by the steps
Where they were sittin'
And I couldn't believe
How drunk they were gettin'
I said "Old men, ya been drinking long?"
They said "Long enough
To start singin' this song":
Lord preserve us and protect us,
We been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast!
They passed me the bottle
Said "Take a little sip"
And it felt so good that I just couldn't quit
So I drank a little more, next thing I knew
There were 3 of us sittin' there singin' this tune:
Lord preserve us and protect us
We been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast!
Well one by one everybody in the town
Heard our ruckus and they all came down
And pretty soon all the streets were ringin'
With the sound of the whole town
Laughin' and singin':
Lord preserve us and protect us
We been drinkin' whiskey 'fore breakfast!”
Stay safe
&
Enjoy the Schiit N Music
Kiko Loureiro (ex Angra; currently with Megadeth) has a brand new solo album out as well, titled “Open Source.” It’s heavier than Petrucci’s; great soloing and drumming’s pretty sweet too.
wout31
500+ Head-Fier
My favourite record shops, me living in Europe, were:
-Tommy in my home town. The shop was named after dog of the owner Peter Luiben. Most newly released records and CD's later.
- Rock on. The store that also housed one of the first R&R re-issue labels Ace (not the US label) on 3 Kentishtown Road in Camden London. A long weekend trip to the UK to visit this and other record stores. Made me a life long fan of the label.
- Keep on rockin ' in Kruibeke Belgium run by Marcel Meerman.
That last one had many originals in store I couldn't afford but druled over. He had a pricing system with letters A to Z. A being $ 1 and Z being $ 100. He had ZZZ priced records in the eighties. Records I could only dream about.
-Tommy in my home town. The shop was named after dog of the owner Peter Luiben. Most newly released records and CD's later.
- Rock on. The store that also housed one of the first R&R re-issue labels Ace (not the US label) on 3 Kentishtown Road in Camden London. A long weekend trip to the UK to visit this and other record stores. Made me a life long fan of the label.
- Keep on rockin ' in Kruibeke Belgium run by Marcel Meerman.
That last one had many originals in store I couldn't afford but druled over. He had a pricing system with letters A to Z. A being $ 1 and Z being $ 100. He had ZZZ priced records in the eighties. Records I could only dream about.
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Pietro Cozzi Tinin
Headphoneus Supremus
Nice cat.Rather Ripped Records was another exceptional shop. Quality-to-crap ratio was extremely high (like some of the staff...but they sure knew their music).
FLTWS
Headphoneus Supremus
When I lived in SE PA (well, I still do LOL) I got my start in the 70's at Franklin Music in Plymouth Meeting and they had one really knowledgeable classical sales person, "Jimmy" was his name if I remember correctly. Eventually that chain closed and then it was trips to Tower Records at 6th and South Streets, Philly. I'd make the trip down when Dave Conant of WFLN classical radio station would be there spinning discs for the day, and lots of sales going on so I could load up the back seat with a box or two of LP's.
bcowen
Headphoneus Supremus
Hope the relatives are OK? And not that it helps any, but my wife's car has only one issue. Kind of a big one though.
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I remember how I had to scour everywhere to find good records growing up, consigned as I was to the hinterland of the upper midwest. I remember my joy at discovering, in a K-Mart of all places, Be-Bop Deluxe's "Sunburst Finish" -- a record I'd coveted after reading Ace Frehley praise Bill Nelson as one of the best guitarists he'd ever heard -- especially given its risqué cover. Or my delight in finding Eno's "Here Come the Warm Jets" one afternoon in a dull West Fargo mall, shortly after reading Lester Bang's glowing review of the record in Creem. Chancing upon The Stooge's "Raw Power" in a music store in Grand Forks that had a total of maybe 10 records, most of which were the easiest of easy listening.
It wasn't until I started college that record stores really blossomed in that neck of the woods, mainly through Mother's Records, a chain that grew up around the local colleges (near UND in Grand Forks, NDSU in Fargo, MSU in Moorhead). Until that happened what we'd do was save our money and take trips to either Winnipeg or the Twin Cities, splitting the cost of the trip among several of us, and buy a ton of records at once. Best record store we went to was Electric Fetus in Minneapolis (which, happily, is still around!). As much as I love the convenience of digital, there is still something wonderful about browsing stacks of records in a well-stocked record shop. And it's very cool to see new smaller shops in the Twin Cities area, of which Agharta Records in St. Paul is my favorite.
Unfortunately, COVID caused the furlough of half our income this summer, but I managed to put away enough to pick up the Steven Wilson remix of the first Roxy Music record and Bowie's ChangesNow release during yesterday's RSD release.
Hope everyone is staying healthy and safe and enjoying the music.
It wasn't until I started college that record stores really blossomed in that neck of the woods, mainly through Mother's Records, a chain that grew up around the local colleges (near UND in Grand Forks, NDSU in Fargo, MSU in Moorhead). Until that happened what we'd do was save our money and take trips to either Winnipeg or the Twin Cities, splitting the cost of the trip among several of us, and buy a ton of records at once. Best record store we went to was Electric Fetus in Minneapolis (which, happily, is still around!). As much as I love the convenience of digital, there is still something wonderful about browsing stacks of records in a well-stocked record shop. And it's very cool to see new smaller shops in the Twin Cities area, of which Agharta Records in St. Paul is my favorite.
Unfortunately, COVID caused the furlough of half our income this summer, but I managed to put away enough to pick up the Steven Wilson remix of the first Roxy Music record and Bowie's ChangesNow release during yesterday's RSD release.
Hope everyone is staying healthy and safe and enjoying the music.
I can’t decide between Rasputin and Amoeba here in LA. Both absolute classics.
macdonjh
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2015
- Posts
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So THAT's why you took the jet to my house for brisket last night. I'll assume the adventure caused your wife no issues?Hope the relatives are OK? And not that it helps any, but my wife's car has only one issue. Kind of a big one though.
macdonjh
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2015
- Posts
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- 9,342
Props for the MA Recordings sampler downloads. Listening to the 2020 sampler now. Good sound and a few of the tracks even violate the JGH Axiom (or actually the corollary: the performance may be good but the music not to my taste).
Thanks for the recommendation. Calamus up later this morning.
Thanks for the recommendation. Calamus up later this morning.
Roy G. Biv
Headphoneus Supremus
@bcowen it'll buff right out. Hope she didn't get hurt any.
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