[Roy G. Biv]

We're still going back and forth on Sol.

I'm pleased that the future of Sol is being treated as a business decision and not as a pet "vanity" project that will go on sale regardless of the realities of the market. Well done Jason, Mike, et al.

 

[bcowen]

We're still going back and forth on Sol. The last gripe--wow and flutter--has been vanquished, and we are getting below 0.1% consistently.

Most importantly, this measurement is NOT done with hinky phone apps or ancient W&F meters, but with the APx555's Wow and Flutter measurement utility, which measures according to standard "AES 6-2008 - Method for Measurement of Weighted Peak Flutter of Sound Recording and Reproducing Equipment" (IEC 60386 Weighted).

Unfortunately, to get less than 0.1% consistently, we have to use a heavy pulley (the old pulley), which will NOT self-start. If the beta users decide this is acceptable, we will re-start sales most likely in February, depending on if we have to get new belts or other small items.

The sales tactic will be very different, as we will provide every Sol with a cartridge (there will be no cartridge-free option) and make sure it is pre-set and ready to go. You'd still be able to buy additional arms, of course, and use your own cartridge, but it's much better to provide a ready-to-go product. The type of cartridge is still up for debate--Grado Red sounds the best in our testing, but Ortofon Red has less hum (Grados do tend to pick up environmental hum).

My Nottingham isn't a self-starter either. If having to give the platter a push to get things going is a show-stopper for people looking at 'tables at this level, then I guess it is what it is. For me, the final sonics rule and the bump-start is a triviality at best.

 

[thebmc]

My Nottingham isn't a self-starter either. If having to give the platter a push to get things going is a show-stopper for people looking at 'tables at this level, then it is what it is. For me, the final sonics rule and the bump-start is a triviality at best.

Agreed. This isn't the first and won't be the last deck that needed a nudge to start up. Heck, I give my rega a nudge because I feel like letting the belt slip and stretch at every startup just decreases it's life. Same with my project rpm1. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me

 

[Varejao17]

Yup. This isn’t a scratch dj deck.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

I'm pleased that the future of Sol is being treated as a business decision and not as a pet "vanity" project that will go on sale regardless of the realities of the market. Well done Jason, Mike, et al.

Yep.

Here's the thing: when we started, there were a lot fewer options. Now, we still have some significant advantages--longest arm anywhere near the price, a real unconstrained unipivot, quick swapping of affordable arms, the biggest and most insane bearing anywhere near the price, unique aluminum plinth and aluminum platter...but it's also coupled with some disadvantages--more expensive than entry-level US-made tables, getting near the price of VPI's entry table, no dust cover, can be more fiddly to use with a separate motor pod/unipivot/etc. On balance, I think we have enough advantages to bring it to market, as long as we can keep delivering a consistent, quality product. But it's no longer a slam dunk.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

In other news, Brian's article about the blind listening of Magni 3+, Heresy, and Vali 2 at the Schiitr is up--it gives a ton of details on how we did it, and what the results were. It's worth a read!

https://audio-head.com/magni-3-vs-heresy-a-schiit-shootout/

 

[A Jedi]

These blind tests you guys are doing are killer. Love it.

 

[Rensek]

I thought that giving the table a nudge to get going was part of the charm....

Many times companies make decision to appease the complainers/requestors, and don't realize many people are either happy with how a product is, or will be unhappy with said changes.

Look at the outsized impact Twitter has, considering active US based users vs US population. It's all about being the loudest and angriest.

I will also point to Ragnarok 2 and the decision to have preouts always on with HP only and always off with speakers only. It is what it is, but I'm sure Schiit wasn't expecting the commentary it received from that decision, a decision that appears to be driven by a loud/passionate subset of the consumer base.

 

[Hofy]

Yep.

Here's the thing: when we started, there were a lot fewer options. Now, we still have some significant advantages--longest arm anywhere near the price, a real unconstrained unipivot, quick swapping of affordable arms, the biggest and most insane bearing anywhere near the price, unique aluminum plinth and aluminum platter...but it's also coupled with some disadvantages--more expensive than entry-level US-made tables, getting near the price of VPI's entry table, no dust cover, can be more fiddly to use with a separate motor pod/unipivot/etc. On balance, I think we have enough advantages to bring it to market, as long as we can keep delivering a consistent, quality product. But it's no longer a slam dunk.

Who cares! Even if you have to make it a $1200 table it will sell. Make it right and we will buy.

 

[bboris77]

In other news, Brian's article about the blind listening of Magni 3+, Heresy, and Vali 2 at the Schiitr is up--it gives a ton of details on how we did it, and what the results were. It's worth a read!

https://audio-head.com/magni-3-vs-heresy-a-schiit-shootout/

I love the idea of blind listening but I found the article a bit lacking to be honest. I am going to criticize it a bit in an attempt to provide constructive feedback for future blind tests.

1.The article did not really state what kind of music was played, who actually picked the music and whether the participants had any kind of control over the playback, except for being able to switch between various amps instantaneously. In my experience, it really helps if a participant is listening to a recording that they are familiar with and if they are able to rewind while listening to compare short musical phrases rather than longer pieces of music.

2. The author should have stated whether the amps were in the low or high gain mode. So a bit more technical detail for us nerds.

3. The actual results for all three headphones should have been presented - a scorecard with a summary of participants' comments for each amp.

4. Correct me if I am wrong, but all three headphones were open back - next time please throw in a good closed-back to avoid external noise playing a role.

All in all, a fantastic idea and a very brave one. Can you imagine if next time participants actually prefer the Magni 3+ to the Lyr 3?

 

[dmckean44]

Yep.

Here's the thing: when we started, there were a lot fewer options. Now, we still have some significant advantages--longest arm anywhere near the price, a real unconstrained unipivot, quick swapping of affordable arms, the biggest and most insane bearing anywhere near the price, unique aluminum plinth and aluminum platter...but it's also coupled with some disadvantages--more expensive than entry-level US-made tables, getting near the price of VPI's entry table, no dust cover, can be more fiddly to use with a separate motor pod/unipivot/etc. On balance, I think we have enough advantages to bring it to market, as long as we can keep delivering a consistent, quality product. But it's no longer a slam dunk.

It also has the advantage of everything being modular and adjustable. I fully expect to see a cottage industry sprout up around this table.

 

[Ableza]

I love the idea of blind listening but I found the article a bit lacking to be honest. I am going to criticize it a bit in an attempt to provide constructive feedback for future blind tests.

1.The article did not really state what kind of music was played, who actually picked the music and whether the participants had any kind of control over the playback, except for being able to switch between various amps instantaneously. In my experience, it really helps if a participant is listening to a recording that they are familiar with and if they are able to rewind while listening to compare short musical phrases rather than longer pieces of music.

2. The author should have stated whether the amps were in the low or high gain mode. So a bit more technical detail for us nerds.

3. The actual results for all three headphones should have been presented - a scorecard with a summary of participants' comments for each amp.

4. Correct me if I am wrong, but all three headphones were open back - next time please throw in a good closed-back to avoid external noise playing a role.

All in all, a fantastic idea and a very brave one. Can you imagine if next time participants actually prefer the Magni 3+ to the Lyr 3?

Jason stated that the amps had been level matched, so gain and user control were taken out of the equation.

 

[bboris77]

Jason stated that the amps had been level matched, so gain and user control were taken out of the equation.

Except you could level match amps in different gain modes. We can all agree that an amp in high gain mode level matched to the same amp in low gain more distortion and less feedback applied. A lot of people believe that each of the gain modes has a distinct sound signature.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

I love the idea of blind listening but I found the article a bit lacking to be honest. I am going to criticize it a bit in an attempt to provide constructive feedback for future blind tests.

1.The article did not really state what kind of music was played, who actually picked the music and whether the participants had any kind of control over the playback, except for being able to switch between various amps instantaneously. In my experience, it really helps if a participant is listening to a recording that they are familiar with and if they are able to rewind while listening to compare short musical phrases rather than longer pieces of music.

2. The author should have stated whether the amps were in the low or high gain mode. So a bit more technical detail for us nerds.

3. The actual results for all three headphones should have been presented - a scorecard with a summary of participants' comments for each amp.

4. Correct me if I am wrong, but all three headphones were open back - next time please throw in a good closed-back to avoid external noise playing a role.

All in all, a fantastic idea and a very brave one. Can you imagine if next time participants actually prefer the Magni 3+ to the Lyr 3?

These are fun events, not AES-level research projects, frequently ad-hoc assembled in very short timeframes. There were no scorecards. Hell, there were no notepads. There also wasn't a proctor with a yardstick enforcing methodology, serious study, and absolute silence. Hell, I had been drinking, and lots of other people had been as well. We just said "Let us know what you like, and if you want, guess the amps." That was it. These are small events, not designed to produce lab-grade data to change the underpinnings of the audio universe.

If I had a billion years to plan this, and nothing else to do, I would have probably chosen at least one different headphone, and we may have even gone hog wild with notepads, sure. Maybe. Or maybe not. If it gets to be too much like work and too little like fun, I don't think anyone will want to do this anymore. Sorry, that's the reality.

All that said, I covered the music question in my post. Anyone could choose anything and listen as long as they wanted.

I also covered how we did level matching (with an analyzer, using the actual transducer.)

Amps were in high gain, and were not switched. As I stated, nobody had access to volume to preserve the level matching.

And finally, as before, I have to warn against extrapolating from such a small dataset. Even if everyone liked, say, Vali 2, can you say that tube amps are universally "better?" Of course not. The next week with a different set of people could product a different result--like everyone preferring Heresy. Does that mean that better measurements are universally better? Again, no. These are a handful of people, listening for a few minutes, on headphones they don't own, from sources they aren't familiar with. If you use that to extrapolate out a Universal Audio Truth, you're probably going to be dissappointed.

 

[bboris77]

These are fun events, not AES-level research projects, frequently ad-hoc assembled in very short timeframes. There were no scorecards. Hell, there were no notepads. There also wasn't a proctor with a yardstick enforcing methodology, serious study, and absolute silence. Hell, I had been drinking, and lots of other people had been as well. We just said "Let us know what you like, and if you want, guess the amps." That was it. These are small events, not designed to produce lab-grade data to change the underpinnings of the audio universe.

If I had a billion years to plan this, and nothing else to do, I would have probably chosen at least one different headphone, and we may have even gone hog wild with notepads, sure. Maybe. Or maybe not. If it gets to be too much like work and too little like fun, I don't think anyone will want to do this anymore. Sorry, that's the reality.

All that said, I covered the music question in my post. Anyone could choose anything and listen as long as they wanted.

I also covered how we did level matching (with an analyzer, using the actual transducer.)

Amps were in high gain, and were not switched. As I stated, nobody had access to volume to preserve the level matching.

Thank you Jason for that explanation. I’m just playing a bit of devil’s advocate for the objectivist group here and trying to preempt their questions. I agree that music and this hobby should be about having fun and not sucking all the joy out of it through the audiophile anxiety syndrome.

To clarify, I don’t belong in either of the objectivist/subjectivist camps. I do think measurements matter but I trust my ears over anything.