[atubbs]

  ...
 
Regarding some comments about the expense of turntables to get high-quality sound, this actually isn't accurate. In fact with a good but not expensive turntable, a clean, properly recorded and mastered record sounds better than the majority of digital content I own or have heard. What I've found, with the exception of the intensely value-added Schiit digital products, is that you have to spend 3-5X the amount on a DAC for the same (or often, not quite as good) performance you can get from a turntable. In my experience what this means is that you have (with the exception of Schiit) to spend $3,000-$5,000 on a DAC to get the performance of an $850 Rega RP-3 and a good, say, $500-$600 cartridge. Sure, you can get digital sources that sound positively incredible, but these are often more expensive that turntables that can outperform them for a significantly lower price. 
 
...
 

 
I think this was key for me. What remains incredible in my experience is how good vinyl can sound for how little money. Ignoring headache and hassle and software cost, I think what can be achieved for $500 in analog playback is pretty astonishing. Think the marginal return in terms of potential playback quality for the first few hundred dollars is dramatically higher than with a digital chain. 
 
Of course, this is all theory. There are a ton of crappy pressings. This could be because the pressing itself is literally terrible or like with digital media, it can be because the mastering is terrible. Newer records, especially, are often not great. Have had a few that I swear were cut from dynamic range compressed software that I swear was also encoded to low-bitrate mp3 for sport as well. Even from purportedly reputable labels, results vary a lot. The Blue Note reissues (well, at least one series of them, it gets difficult to keep track) for example are even proclaimed by the label as "not audiophile" quality and are intended to get the software out there more than to present it as well as possible. They sound like crap. If you think digital provenance is a mess, trying to get a straight answer about which pressings of a classic record are good seems to require divine assistance. For modern records, it's pretty much a complete mystery. The newest popular record on Amazon is going to have plenty of 5-star reviews even if it sounds ghastly, guaranteed. And then, if buying used, it's a wholly different level of pain, confusion, and frustration. Have a good friend with an extensive collection of contemporary and vintage jazz pressings. As an anecdote: we've compared a 1957 mono first pressing of Bag's Groove to more contemporary versions; it trounces every single one of them. Depressing. To wit, this was one he inherited in a box of moldy records stored in a basement for half a century from his uncle. You literally can't buy a new copy that sounds like it. Ugh. These are not the problems of the digital audiophile. But, it's can be a lot of fun when you get lucky, and occasionally even new software comes out that is prepared carefully and it's such a treat.
 
So that's a lot of words to say "it's potentially great but a lot of hassle." Then there's VTA, azimuth, alignment, and cleaning. Doesn't matter how good the tools are to do these things, it's still a hassle. If you like hassles and rituals, and feel more invested in the music because of it, that's great. But, I can't really sit here and say that it's anything but a hassle. Oh, and it takes a lot of space, even for a modest collection. So, no matter how good it sounds, I can't in good faith recommend it to somebody interested in any semblance of convenience. I think any attempts to convince people to take the plunge are disingenuous if they try to gloss over those aspects. Give somebody a decent DAC, some decent software in lossless red book and the only concern then ends up being provenance and mastering ... hard to not argue for fewer things to go wrong sometimes.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr.Puma Cat,  
 
EAR phono Pre,  oh dear, he's still around? I sold his 509 Mono Amps, British Tube stuff, he's a transformer winder.  
You Sir are Ultra-niche! Do you own a GyroDeck? or a Pink Triangle TT?  England has very little of this type of product, what they do produce is sold here in the States, kinda East Coastish, the USA glossy Rag reviewers like Tim, he's a character, the Brits think he's a "bit of a Nutter", like me.
"there's a lid for every pot" 
 
Esoteric Audio Research, black chrome, oh-dear.
 
Tony in Michigan  

 

[bearFNF]

Snore...zzzzzzzzzz....more posts to skip....

 

[GearMe]

Well its true that its not hard to set up a good budget TT setup, but there is a lot more tinkering opportunity, cartridges, tone arms, new platters, power supplies and the works, but I think you are getting a lot more sound quality than with a comparatively priced DAC or CD player. The amount of "tweakability" in itself made it quite bewildering, because with an analogue setup, every part makes a difference. I spent maybe 3 hours tinkering with the fitment of cartridge when I bought replacement for my turntable and it almost made me go a bit bonkers whether it was sounding as it was supposed to sound. The service rep had offered to install it, maybe I should have agreed!

So turntables are welcome for folks who love to tinker with things. Personally I just want to play my music and I want to explore, vinyl made it real difficult to explore. I frequently bought 2nd hard records only to find them in poor condition or not at all what I was expecting. Exploring music catalogues with digital is just so much more convenient. Then there are the thing of keeping your records clean, but I also lived in an area with low humidity and high static. So it was necessary to use anti-static brushes frequently to keep the pops down. But one thing I'll never disagree on, a well setup turntable sounds like magic and it feels really nice holding those vinyl records! I sold my Thorens turntable about 3 months ago and I still miss it, but I don't miss the maintenance!   

This!

Your Thorens comment made me reminisce about my 'vinyl days'; been decades since I've owned mine (SME arm, MC cartridge, etc.). It was pretty good at the time...but even then I owned a Nakamichi Cassette Deck for the convenience factor.

Can't say I miss it...except when I can't find an album I had in digital!

 

[520RanchBro]

I'd love to try a Mani some day. My Modi just arrived yesterday so I could use my headphones and Asgard 2 with my computer as well (previously only used for vinyl). After comparing flac to vinyl listening I'll still take my records for my favorite sound. Not necessarily the 'best' sound, but most of my favorites sound best on a turntable. I don't know if it's the master or what, I'm not using expensive equipment. Just a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and a Pro-Ject Phono Box into the Asgard 2. 

 

[atubbs]

  I'd love to try a Mani some day. My Modi just arrived yesterday so I could use my headphones and Asgard 2 with my computer as well (previously only used for vinyl). After comparing flac to vinyl listening I'll still take my records for my favorite sound. Not necessarily the 'best' sound, but most of my favorites sound best on a turntable. I don't know if it's the master or what, I'm not using expensive equipment. Just a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and a Pro-Ject Phono Box into the Asgard 2. 

 
The Debut Carbon/Phono Box are incredibly good starting points.

 

[rmullins08]

  I'd love to try a Mani some day. My Modi just arrived yesterday so I could use my headphones and Asgard 2 with my computer as well (previously only used for vinyl). After comparing flac to vinyl listening I'll still take my records for my favorite sound. Not necessarily the 'best' sound, but most of my favorites sound best on a turntable. I don't know if it's the master or what, I'm not using expensive equipment. Just a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and a Pro-Ject Phono Box into the Asgard 2. 

Solid combos there.  I've got the debut carbon -> mani -> vali

 

[520RanchBro]

 
Solid combos there.  I've got the debut carbon -> mani -> vali

When I have some cash I'm going to try a Mani. I'm curious to see how much of a difference there is between budget phono pres. Hopefully the Mani is worth it so I can convert my desktop setup to all Schiit. Having a Mani, Modi, SYS and Asgard 2 next to each other would look slick. I'm curious to try the Vali too!

 

[Puma Cat]

   
I think this was key for me. What remains incredible in my experience is how good vinyl can sound for how little money. Ignoring headache and hassle and software cost, I think what can be achieved for $500 in analog playback is pretty astonishing. Think the marginal return in terms of potential playback quality for the first few hundred dollars is dramatically higher than with a digital chain. 
 
Of course, this is all theory. There are a ton of crappy pressings. This could be because the pressing itself is literally terrible or like with digital media, it can be because the mastering is terrible. Newer records, especially, are often not great. Have had a few that I swear were cut from dynamic range compressed software that I swear was also encoded to low-bitrate mp3 for sport as well. Even from purportedly reputable labels, results vary a lot. The Blue Note reissues (well, at least one series of them, it gets difficult to keep track) for example are even proclaimed by the label as "not audiophile" quality and are intended to get the software out there more than to present it as well as possible. They sound like crap. If you think digital provenance is a mess, trying to get a straight answer about which pressings of a classic record are good seems to require divine assistance. For modern records, it's pretty much a complete mystery. The newest popular record on Amazon is going to have plenty of 5-star reviews even if it sounds ghastly, guaranteed. And then, if buying used, it's a wholly different level of pain, confusion, and frustration. Have a good friend with an extensive collection of contemporary and vintage jazz pressings. As an anecdote: we've compared a 1957 mono first pressing of Bag's Groove to more contemporary versions; it trounces every single one of them. Depressing. To wit, this was one he inherited in a box of moldy records stored in a basement for half a century from his uncle. You literally can't buy a new copy that sounds like it. Ugh. These are not the problems of the digital audiophile. But, it's can be a lot of fun when you get lucky, and occasionally even new software comes out that is prepared carefully and it's such a treat.
 
So that's a lot of words to say "it's potentially great but a lot of hassle." Then there's VTA, azimuth, alignment, and cleaning. Doesn't matter how good the tools are to do these things, it's still a hassle. If you like hassles and rituals, and feel more invested in the music because of it, that's great. But, I can't really sit here and say that it's anything but a hassle. Oh, and it takes a lot of space, even for a modest collection. So, no matter how good it sounds, I can't in good faith recommend it to somebody interested in any semblance of convenience. I think any attempts to convince people to take the plunge are disingenuous if they try to gloss over those aspects. Give somebody a decent DAC, some decent software in lossless red book and the only concern then ends up being provenance and mastering ... hard to not argue for fewer things to go wrong sometimes.

Just some additional comments. 
 
Yes, there are a lot of crappy pressings. But there are still a lot of good ones available as well. For example, you can pick up original classical recordings from the 50s, 60s and 70s in literally mint condition for $3-$4/each. This is a  bonus if you like classical music as I do. Deccas, Londons, DGs, Argo, Philips, and Telefunkens from this time frame sound extraordinary. 
 
And, there are lot of extremely good pressings available now. As I mentioned, Speakers Corner, ORG, Music Matters, and Analogue Productions are making extremely high quality pressings. Chad Kassem at Analogue Productions has built a brand new record pressing plant in Salina, Kansas from an investment of millions of dollars. With respect to your Bag's Groove comparison, I agree with you that the original 1957 mono trounces almost all other pressings since. But, one of the great things that Chad is doing is remastering and repressing many of these mono records (for example, a large portion of the original Prestige mono jazz catalog) and making them available for a fraction of the price of the original. The usually sound as good as the originals, and often, better. He's gone so far as to have custom mono head cutters made to do this with the highest possible quality. Yes, these records cost $35, but they sound incredible, and are a fraction of the price of the original monos. The point here being that there is very high quality content available at reasonable prices for a significant portion of the repertory. 
 
And, you're overlooking one key point: many of these wonderful recording are simply not available in digital form. LPs are the only way to hear them. 
 
As for setting up a cartridge in a turntable. Yes, it's a hassle, but for many turntables, like Regas, they are a set-once and forget-it setup. And the small amount of time to set them up is well worth the payoff. Mike Moffat would likely agree. It all depends on one's specific requirements; if you just want convenience, digital is great and getting better every day. But in my personal experience, if you want "absolute sound" level performance, that usually means playback on a quality analog source. All depends on what you want, and when. 

 

[Puma Cat]

  Mr.Puma Cat,  
 
EAR phono Pre,  oh dear, he's still around? I sold his 509 Mono Amps, British Tube stuff, he's a transformer winder.  
You Sir are Ultra-niche! Do you own a GyroDeck? or a Pink Triangle TT?  England has very little of this type of product, what they do produce is sold here in the States, kinda East Coastish, the USA glossy Rag reviewers like Tim, he's a character, the Brits think he's a "bit of a Nutter", like me.
"there's a lid for every pot" 
 
Esoteric Audio Research, black chrome, oh-dear.
 
Tony in Michigan  

Yes, Tim is still around, and many of us are very glad of it. He's much more than a transformer winder; you do him a disservice by applying that label to his profession. My EAR 324, BTW, is solid-state, and Tim says he can get any component he designs to sound identical whether tube or solid-state based, and I believe him. 
 
And yes, I own a Michell TT, not a GryoDeck, but a Gyro SE...and an SME V pickup arm. 
 

 

[mordante]

People that call computer audio simple are completely wrong. Computer audio is just as hard/complex as vinyl. Here are just some of the issues concerning computer audio:
 
1) computer vs streamer
2) NAS vs local storage
3) 16/44.1 or 24/96 or 24/192
4) AIFF vs WAF, vs FLAC vs apple lossless vs MP3
5) PCM vs DSD
6) software vs hardware up/over sampling
7) up/over samplings vs NOS
8) setting up a network
9) regular patches required
10) buy a tablet for control
11) hoping your streamer actually has an app for you tablet
12) WASPI vs Kernel streaming
13) Jrviver vs Foobar vs iTunes
14) Using free software to rip vs dBpoweramp
15) endless problems with meta data
 
ad nauseam

 

[AManAnd88Keys]

  People that call computer audio simple are completely wrong. Computer audio is just as hard/complex as vinyl. Here are just some of the issues concerning computer audio:
 
1) computer vs streamer
2) NAS vs local storage
3) 16/44.1 or 24/96 or 24/192
4) AIFF vs WAF, vs FLAC vs apple lossless vs MP3
5) PCM vs DSD
6) software vs hardware up/over sampling
7) up/over samplings vs NOS
8) setting up a network
9) regular patches required
10) buy a tablet for control
11) hoping your streamer actually has an app for you tablet
12) WASPI vs Kernel streaming
13) Jrviver vs Foobar vs iTunes
14) Using free software to rip vs dBpoweramp
15) endless problems with meta data
 
ad nauseam

Not all of those points are necessarily relevant to everybody using digital audio. For example, points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14 and 15 don't matter to me at all.
The biggest problem with vinyl imho is that the record itself will wear a little bit every time you play it. Of course, this adds to the ritual around it, but I just can't put up with that...

 

[mordante]

If you have a good set up you vinyl will never ever wear out. If you use a warn out card or screw up the setting completely then vinyl wear is not an issue. Not saying all those points are necessary for everyone. But say digital play back is easy is a lie.

 

[HalSF]

The biggest problem with vinyl imho is that the record itself will wear a little bit every time you play it. Of course, this adds to the ritual around it, but I just can't put up with that...

Vinyl records wearing out is an imanginary anxiety. Somebody else will be able to listen to my LPs long after I'm gone. Clean records in good sleeves and played on a properly set up turntable don't lose fidelity over time. I mean, sure, eventually friction and heat will damage the grooves, but that's like curling up in a ball of fear because the Second Law of Thermodynamics and the heat death of the universe spells doom for everything around us someday.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. PumaCat,  
 
I think Tim would laugh over my charactorization of him, he's a funny kind of guy, at least as I remember him.  I got on quite well with these Brits, so much so that I imported Containers of their stuff to the US.  
You'd have to be a "Nutter" to make Tim's kind of product and a "Nutter" to Import it!  I specialized in auditioning various Wires, Cramolin usage, we had grades of Carbon Brushes, three manufacturers of Record Cleaning Machines: Nitty Gritty, Monks and VPI, for cristsake I was way deeper than you are at now.  It was a crazy time, we compared all manner of nichey, we pioneered AB test Panels of Puma Cats, we had a realllllly good time with all this, it was great fun.  
 
[size=x-small]"Was" is the operative word here,  I only know of Jon Iverson [/size]belonging[size=x-small] to a nice Audio Club, maybe there are others out there, somewhere, perhaps Iceland but none around here, except for headphone meets ( if you can consider them Audio Clubs ).[/size]
 
[size=x-small]Anyway, the your Michell is beautiful , what is that Red Cart? a Grado or Koetsu Rosewood ?[/size]
 
[size=x-small]I'm glad Tim survived and is still out there, I'll have to drop him a message, he'll fight to make a sale and I'll have to beg-off, my world's North shifted to South somewhere.  He always promised everything and anything, nobody ever felt him to be bashful or modest. [/size]
 
[size=x-small]Tony in Michigan [/size]