[Anavel0]

My parents were musicphiles, not so much audiophiles like us, they just loved all kinds of music but didn't worry about reproduction. So, I've heard every format from vinyl, 8 track, then cassettes growing up. I have never heard a sound like vinyl. And yes there can be tons of nuances to vinyl, if you follow the white rabbit too far down the rabbit whole. But I'm rocking a Rega RP1 with performance pack and a mani and it's slaying every digital rig I've ever had the pleasure of listening to. 
 
I certainly still feel digital has it's place to, like on the go or my bedside rig. That's just a level of convenience that vinyl can't beat, you don't need to brush off your iTunes tracks or Tidal streams before listening. But when I really want to hear and feel the music aurally and emotionally it's vinyl that I run to. The extra seconds of brushing off the record, setting the tone arm down, and flipping the record add to the personal connection to the music. Also, don't get me started on the lost art of the album. In the era of the $0.99 cent single hardly anyone from my generation, did I mention I'm just barely 30, even knows what listening to an album from beginning to end feels like. That and mainstream artist aren't creating albums to have a purposeful beginning, middle, and end.
 
Vinyl is dead, long live vinyl!

 

[senorx12562]

  Vinyl can sound glorious and enticing, make the hair on the back of your neck stand up etc.
20 minutes at a time.
 
But Vinyl done 'correctly' is expensive, and not just in $$$$$$$ but the time and effort and resouces (room(s) etc.) needed to dial it all in.
Are you ever really done making "adjustments"?
 
It has foibles that anyone who has spent time 'going after it' can attest to.
Vibration control (is the turntable in the same room as the speakers?).
More complexity in terms of the whole system.
Are any of the tube(s) in the same room as the speakers?
To name but a few…
 
And since the setup does change and not just due to wear and tare as the vinyl/diamond wear but as tubes age, etc., there is a degree of variability which is inescapable.
 
Not to mention the limitations of the Vinyl medium, recording process, manfacturing process, end user practices.
 
I for one put up with all of this for decades and was happy to do so, until digital 'matured' sufficiently so that it's versions of problematic issues (digititus etc) shrank to the point that the thrill is there.
 
This maturation process took a really long time, considering.
 
But what turned out to be THE #1, with a bullet, reason for not playing any of my vinyl collection is, 20 minutes at a time just doesn't cut it any more.  
It disrupts my enjoyment of music far to much.  
Just when I'm in the groove D) and wanting more, gotta get up and flip the album over/ready another album for play.
 
And for equivalent SQ,
the ultimate in simplicity,
a computer,
a DAC,
an amp,
a pair of headphones 
And finally, it can compete with complexity
for a fraction of the system price.
 
These are compelling reasons, at least for me anyways.
 
JJ  

+1

 

[tonykaz]

Chapter 40:  
 
You took me back thru my last 6 decades, back to Erica Morini of the mid1950s, vinyl mono, glorious she was, her and her Strad. violin!  Today, Julia Fischer is knocking everyone's socks off, digital this time, even more glorious and accessible! 
 
The Mani :  I wish you lads were offering this back around 1982, Id've sold em by the dozens per month, all by myself, I had to make do with the PS Audio 4H, Paul & Stan were good to us, they had an integrated too, something like your big amp.  
 
Professor Moffat/Baldr coming out of the closet:   I rather think he's just back from hiatus, maybe Baldr is reincarnated ( as in mythology ) but I tend to think he's nicely rested up and again ready for a market place primed for his brilliant solutions, he's kinda that rare talent coming on-stage for a brilliant encore virtuoso performance, you're experienced audience is lining up, buying their tickets, the curtain will raise in a few minutes and we're ready for you, the new ones are out here with us, wondering what to expect.  
 
Vinyl can sound very good:  Certainly it can sound good, we built a retail world around it.  Just in my area we had:
Audio Dimensions ( ARC-Magnapan),
Almas ( B&W type stuff),
Absolute Sound ( LINN/NAIM),
Audio One ( Beveradge ),
Stereo Land Chain of 5 big stores selling Macintosh & Bozak & lots of other flashy stuff,
Audioland with 3 big stores,
Hifidelty Workshop ( Fisher and other simpler stuff like Shure V15),
Esoteric Audio ( me ) selling British stuff like Airiston -SME-Electrocompaniet - VPI -Koetsu- MIT cables and the Worlds highest volume seller of Monster Cable stuff,
Gramaphone ( Denon-Krell-Nakamici ) and
a few smaller tweaky outfits .
 The Glory Days!!  
 
All of us were vinyl specialists , we all died with the death of vinyl in 1985 . RIP 
 
Missing lots of pieces:   Sure it is, it's suffering with garbage-in syndrome, where is our DAC that sings like a Koetus Rosewood? or that original Linn Ittok/Asak combo? 
 
But Schiit is gonna fix all that, aren't cha? Oh, gosh, we are hoping, pleeeeeaaaze fix us up. We need our "on-demand" dopamine rush from the only legal drug left to us, our music, our Julia Fischer and peers!  
 
Will vinyl last?:    How can it?  The grannies will inherit those 6,500 vinyl collections, they'll split em up and try to play them, some will end-up with a Mani/Roy Hall set-up ( maybe 5-10% ), out of those maybe a few will continue up the elevator into VPI land, maybe.  Will their spouses go along with all that accompanies vinyl ( like you mentioned in your introduction )? 
 
Revival of a dead technology:  Oh geez, I hope not, it's dead, let it rest.  
 
What if?:   The entire earthly population has glided into little white wires hanging from their ears, they've decided how to answer all our what-if questions, they've won all the debate's points with their credit cards -- Digital wins by a Knock-out.   
 
Tony in Michigan 
 
ps, The Schiit DACs aren't Garbage-in devices, quite the contrary, they are darn close to what I'm hoping for in a DAC, I could live out my remaining years with these devices but if someone develops an improvement I'm preconditioned and prepared to up-grade, especially if it's up there in performance, along side those $10,000 DACs. I may xmas myself and just buy one of the $10k units but I can also be loyal to Schiit and wait out Professor Balder's Grand Re-entrance.  

 

[senorx12562]

 
Chapter 40:  
 
You took me back thru my last 6 decades, back to Erica Morini of the mid1950s, vinyl mono, glorious she was, her and her Strad. violin!  Today, Julia Fischer is knocking everyone's socks off, digital this time, even more glorious and accessible! 
 
The Mani :  I wish you lads were offering this back around 1982, Id've sold em by the dozens per month, all by myself, I had to make do with the PS Audio 4H, Stan & Warren were good to us, they had an integrated too, something like your big amp.  
 
Professor Moffat/Baldr coming out of the closet:   I rather think he's just back from hiatus, maybe Baldr is reincarnated ( as in mythology ) but I tend to think he's nicely rested up and again ready for a market place primed for his brilliant solutions, he's kinda that rare talent coming on-stage for a brilliant encore virtuoso performance, you're experienced audience is lining up, buying their tickets, the curtain will raise in a few minutes and we're ready for you, the new ones are out here with us, wondering what to expect.  
 
Vinyl can sound very good:  Certainly it can sound good, we built a retail world around it.  Just in my area we had:
Audio Dimensions ( ARC-Magnapan),
Almas ( B&W type stuff),
Absolute Sound ( LINN/NAIM),
Audio One ( Beveradge ),
Stereo Land Chain of 5 big stores selling Macintosh & Bozak & lots of other flashy stuff,
Audioland with 3 big stores,
Hifidelty Workshop ( Fisher and other simpler stuff like Shure V15),
Esoteric Audio ( me ) selling British stuff like Airiston -SME-Electrocompaniet - VPI -Koetsu- MIT cables and the Worlds highest volume seller of Monster Cable stuff,
Gramaphone ( Denon-Krell-Nakamici ) and
a few smaller tweaky outfits .
 The Glory Days!!  
 
All of us were vinyl specialists , we all died with the death of vinyl in 1985 . RIP 
 
Missing lots of pieces:   Sure it is, it's suffering with garbage-in syndrome, where is our DAC that sings like a Koetus Rosewood? or that original Linn Ittok/Asak combo? 
 
But Schiit is gonna fix all that, aren't cha? Oh, gosh, we are hoping, pleeeeeaaaze fix us up. We need our "on-demand" dopamine rush from the only legal drug left to us, our music, our Julia Fischer and peers!  
 
Will vinyl last?:    How can it?  The grannies will inherit those 6,500 vinyl collections, they'll split em up and try to play them, some will end-up with a Mani/Roy Hall set-up ( maybe 5-10% ), out of those maybe a few will continue up the elevator into VPI land, maybe.  Will their spouses go along with all that accompanies vinyl ( like you mentioned in your introduction )? 
 
Revival of a dead technology:  Oh geez, I hope not, it's dead, let it rest.  
 
What if?:   The entire earthly population has glided into little white wires hanging from their ears, they've decided how to answer all our what-if questions, they've won all the debate's points with their credit cards -- Digital wins by a Knock-out.   
 
Tony in Michigan 

Yeah it's a bit ironic that despite the recent uptick in the percentage of physical media sales of LPs vis-a-vis other physical formats, (mostly cds of course), it is the day on day improvement of digital file playback sound quality that will sound the death knell of vinyl and not cd, and it won't be long.

 

[Jones Bob]

I want my Yggy.

 

[Puma Cat]

Okay, as a long-time dedicated vinyl-head, I have to chime in here...just to lend some perspective. You may have your own preferences, requirements, etc, but here's my experiences and sensibilities for what they are worth (which is about 2¢).
 
Jason, IMO, nailed it, vinyl can sound GREAT. It has a PRESENCE, a YOU-ARE-THERENESS, an ALIVENESS, and some qualities that are hard to articulate, but there is just a something (just Jason said: "Something, something almost indefinable, was more real, more alive, more right"), that, in my experience creates a more beguiling and engaging musical experience, one that is very difficult to achieve from listening to digital. I've done many comparison with extremely high quality digital sources and analog sources, and I have yet to find a comparison, where all things being equal, the vinyl recording did not sound better. 
 
One example was comparing a series (over a dozen) identical Blue Note recordings from Audio Wave XRCD24s vs Music Matter 45 rpm Blue Notes. Both recordings were expertly remastered from the original analogue tapes, and recorded to their respective media with the highest possible fidelity and quality control (reading the process for making an XRCD24 is like reading a Six Sigma report). In these cases, the Audio Wave Blue Note recordings sounded absolutely beautiful, probably amongst the finest digital recordings I've ever heard, But in every case, the Music Matters LP sounded better; sometimes not a lot, but, in an absolute sense, discernably better. And, it's because all the information is there, it's analog, just as Rina was saying. I have yet to hear a DAC or digital recording that can create the experience of listening to music reproduced by my Michell Gyro SE, SME V and gorgeous, sublime Koetsu Urushi Vermilion. 
 
Regarding some comments about the expense of turntables to get high-quality sound, this actually isn't accurate. In fact with a good but not expensive turntable, a clean, properly recorded and mastered record sounds better than the majority of digital content I own or have heard. What I've found, with the exception of the intensely value-added Schiit digital products, is that you have to spend 3-5X the amount on a DAC for the same (or often, not quite as good) performance you can get from a turntable. In my experience what this means is that you have (with the exception of Schiit) to spend $3,000-$5,000 on a DAC to get the performance of an $850 Rega RP-3 and a good, say, $500-$600 cartridge. Sure, you can get digital sources that sound positively incredible, but these are often more expensive that turntables that can outperform them for a significantly lower price. 
 
Regarding pops and clicks: I would estimate that >95% of pops and ticks come from dirty records, and there are many, many market offerings now that can very effectively clean records to the point where they are virtually dead quiet. One of these record cleaning devices costs only about $80  (the Spin Doctor). Additionally, with the significant growth in LP sales over the last six years, there are LP companies, most notably Analogue Productions, Speakers Corner, Music Matters, ORG, etc. that have such high quality in the manufacturing of LPs that newly purchased LPs are also dead silent. 
 
Lastly, there's the experience of listening to LPs that is meaningful for many. A lot of listeners, myself included, enjoy the experience of taking a record out, removing it from it's jacket, and cueing it up on the table, and sitting back and enjoying an immersive and beguiling musical experience. So, for me and a lot of others, when it comes to "absolute sound", it's vinyl, baby! 

 

[Puma Cat]

  Yeah it's a bit ironic that despite the recent uptick in the percentage of physical media sales of LPs vis-a-vis other physical formats, (mostly cds of course), it is the day on day improvement of digital file playback sound quality that will sound the death knell of vinyl and not cd, and it won't be long.

Yeah, we heard that when CD's came out in 1982. I don't agree. There will always be people who will want vinyl.  Most of these, interestingly enough, are young kids/adults. 

 

[anede001]

  Okay, as a long-time dedicated vinyl-head, I have to chime in here...just to lend some perspective. You may have your own preferences, requirements, etc, but here's my experiences and sensibilities for what they are worth (which is about 2¢).
 
Jason, IMO, nailed it, vinyl can sound GREAT. It has a PRESENCE, a YOU-ARE-THERENESS, an ALIVENESS, and some qualities that are hard to articulate, but there is just a something (just Jason said: "Something, something almost indefinable, was more real, more alive, more right"), that, in my experience creates a more beguiling and engaging musical experience, one that is very difficult to achieve from listening to digital. I've done many comparison with extremely high quality digital sources and analog sources, and I have yet to find a comparison, where all things being equal, the vinyl recording did not sound better. 
 
One example was comparing a series (over a dozen) identical Blue Note recordings from Audio Wave XRCD24s vs Music Matter 45 rpm Blue Notes. Both recordings were expertly remastered from the original analogue tapes, and recorded to their respective media with the highest possible fidelity and quality control (reading the process for making an XRCD24 is like reading a Six Sigma report). In these cases, the Audio Wave Blue Note recordings sounded absolutely beautiful, probably amongst the finest digital recordings I've ever heard, But in every case, the Music Matters LP sounded better; sometimes not a lot, but, in an absolute sense, discernably better. And, it's because all the information is there, it's analog, just as Rina was saying. I have yet to hear a DAC or digital recording that can create the experience of listening to music reproduced by my Michell Gyro SE, SME V and gorgeous, sublime Koetsu Urushi Vermilion. 
 
Regarding some comments about the expense of turntables to get high-quality sound, this actually isn't accurate. In fact with a good but not expensive turntable, a clean, properly recorded and mastered record sounds better than the majority of digital content I own or have heard. What I've found, with the exception of the intensely value-added Schiit digital products, is that you have to spend 3-5X the amount on a DAC for the same (or often, not quite as good) performance you can get from a turntable. In my experience what this means is that you have (with the exception of Schiit) to spend $3,000-$5,000 on a DAC to get the performance of an $850 Rega RP-3 and a good, say, $500-$600 cartridge. Sure, you can get digital sources that sound positively incredible, but these are often more expensive that turntables that can outperform them for a significantly lower price. 
 
Regarding pops and clicks: I would estimate that >95% of pops and ticks come from dirty records, and there are many, many market offerings now that can very effectively clean records to the point where they are virtually dead quiet. One of these record cleaning devices costs only about $80  (the Spin Doctor). Additionally, with the significant growth in LP sales over the last six years, there are LP companies, most notably Analogue Productions, Speakers Corner, Music Matters, ORG, etc. that have such high quality in the manufacturing of LPs that newly purchased LPs are also dead silent. 
 
Lastly, there's the experience of listening to LPs that is meaningful for many. A lot of listeners, myself included, enjoy the experience of taking a record out, removing it from it's jacket, and cueing it up on the table, and sitting back and enjoying an immersive and beguiling musical experience. So, for me and a lot of others, when it comes to "absolute sound", it's vinyl, baby! 

What phono preamp do you use?

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. Puma Cat,
 
You are quite right, a nice vinyl sounds good, I regretted closing my Esoteric Audio doors but the Puma Cats of the world moved on to Golf, fishing boats, jet skies, BMW 6 cylinder sports sedans, 30year old Scotch tasting, exotic Cigars, vintage car collecting, Rolex watches, northern Canada fishing trips & hunting trips, second homes up in Harbor Springs, Mi., second or third Wives with expensive taste in all things.  
  These guys left you behind, they stopped playing their SOTA Turntable/Linear tracking tonearm/Koetsu Onyx - Audio Research systems and never came back , their vinyl collection is stored down in the basement with their unused golf clubs and racket-ball equipment.  Their system now is maybe a Plasma Screen & a 5.1 system , they have a Soundbar in the bedroom .   They don't even wanna try to fire up the old system in case it needs re-tubing.  That is the story for 95 to 98% of all the Audio Hobbyists from the vinyl era . ( maybe 99.8% )   
  Of all the Stores we had in 1985, there aren't enough Puma Cats to keep one store open today!   You wanna buy sumptin, go to RMAF or the Big Chicago Show, or that one in California.  You can buy some Magico here in the greater Detroit Area but not much else. 
  I wish you well , the last part of a dying breed , you & TTVJ.  Me, I already died.  
 
Tony in Michigan 

 

[senorx12562]

Yeah, we heard that when CD's came out in 1982. I don't agree. There will always be people who will want vinyl.  Most of these, interestingly enough, are young kids/adults. 

Get back to me in 10 years or so. Oh wait, I'll be dead. Nevermind.

 

[Puma Cat]

What phono preamp do you use?

I use an EAR phono preamp designed by Tim de Paravicini, another one of these genius type guys like Jason, Nelson Pass, or Gordon Rankin.

 

[xuan87]

Everyone here is talking about vinyl and I'm just here wondering what new balanced topology Jason has came up with and how the new amp will fit into the lineup.
 
*Insert vintage spiderman meme*

 

[daerron]

Well its true that its not hard to set up a good budget TT setup, but there is a lot more tinkering opportunity, cartridges, tone arms, new platters, power supplies and the works, but I think you are getting a lot more sound quality than with a comparatively priced DAC or CD player. The amount of "tweakability" in itself made it quite bewildering, because with an analogue setup, every part makes a difference. I spent maybe 3 hours tinkering with the fitment of cartridge when I bought replacement for my turntable and it almost made me go a bit bonkers whether it was sounding as it was supposed to sound. The service rep had offered to install it, maybe I should have agreed!
 
So turntables are welcome for folks who love to tinker with things. Personally I just want to play my music and I want to explore, vinyl made it real difficult to explore. I frequently bought 2nd hard records only to find them in poor condition or not at all what I was expecting. Exploring music catalogues with digital is just so much more convenient. Then there are the thing of keeping your records clean, but I also lived in an area with low humidity and high static. So it was necessary to use anti-static brushes frequently to keep the pops down. But one thing I'll never disagree on, a well setup turntable sounds like magic and it feels really nice holding those vinyl records! I sold my Thorens turntable about 3 months ago and I still miss it, but I don't miss the maintenance! 

 

 

[Chris J]

All very valid points you bring up.  And as to the bold, you are 100% correct, hopefully it leads to people paying attention to what Jason brought up in the DSD post

And, the elephant in the room:

• The most important part of a recording is the master—paying attention on that side will reap benefits beyond any format

The most important part of a recording is the recording.
If the original recording, be it 2 track, 3 track, 4 track, 8 track, 16 track, etc, is of poor quality, the final product will only be as good as the original recording.
You can't fix a poor recording in the mix or mastering phase.

 

[Chris J]

Active has EQ circuits in feedback loop. Using this method, there will be increasing feedback as we go higher up toward the treble according to the RIAA curve. Some believe in or have experienced mysterious voodoo that gobs of feedback destroys the essence of music. I am one of them. Feel free to mock me for my religious beliefs.

I mock you for your religious beliefs. :regular_smile :