Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Oct 6, 2014 at 12:43 PM Post #3,001 of 72,756

forkliftHIFI

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  What about the tube output version of Yggy?

 
Doubt that would happen.  Why does everyone want tubes in their DACs anyway?  It's always going to be a compromise compared with a DAC that just does DAC stuff.  Just get a separate tube buffer or tube preamp.  That said I would like a Yggy with the attenuator from the Ragnorak, since Jason said they won't make one separately and I know its a higher quality volume control than anything else available.  I would of course like for it to be able to be bypassed so I can still use the remote volume control on my tube preamp
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Oct 6, 2014 at 12:46 PM Post #3,002 of 72,756

smitty1110

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It doesn't have to happen within the next 4 days, only before the end of the year. 

 

It was a bit foolish to think otherwise, I guess. Still, I'm allowed to dream about more Schiit, right?
 
Oct 6, 2014 at 12:50 PM Post #3,003 of 72,756

smitty1110

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Doubt that would happen.  Why does everyone want tubes in their DACs anyway?  It's always going to be a compromise compared with a DAC that just does DAC stuff.  Just get a separate tube buffer or tube preamp.  That said I would like a Yggy with the attenuator from the Ragnorak, since Jason said they won't make one separately and I know its a higher quality volume control than anything else available.  I would of course like for it to be able to be bypassed so I can still use the remote volume control on my tube preamp
biggrin.gif

 

The reason you can't have the attenuator is the same reason you don't have tubes in Yggy. It's got one purpose: Turn binary schiit into analog schiit. Everything else is beyond the purview of Yggy.

Edit - spelling
 
Oct 6, 2014 at 1:42 PM Post #3,004 of 72,756

mab1376

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I think Jason said a while back, he would only use tubes in an application that needs a large voltage swing.
 
Oct 6, 2014 at 2:11 PM Post #3,006 of 72,756

tonykaz

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New Product Roll-outs ,
  Well now ,
  2014 ends up with our Schiit having a rather wide spread of Amplification Solutions ( all of em pretty darn good and at way-friendly price points ) . 
  Plus a spread of 4 DACs . 
  How will Schiit's Product range look at the end of 2015 ?  
  Two youngish talented designers with a Batting Average like they have , can't imagine there're gonna fall back into the Lazy-boy and go on Hiatus .  
  Tony in Michigan 
ps .  wouldn't mind having a nice pair of Headphones from these guys 
 
Oct 6, 2014 at 2:38 PM Post #3,007 of 72,756
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I don't want to continue the DSD discussion endlessly, but I do have to disagree with the "magical" aspect of its playback, and in Paul McGowan's interpretation of it as being "closer to analog." I have the greatest respect for Mr. McGowan, but we definitely differ on how we view DSD.
 
While DSD can be viewed as audio by looking at it with a low-pass filter, this has nothing to do with magical qualities, and everything to do with the computation-intensive noise shaping done at the encoding phase. A 2.8MHz bitstream (or 5.6, or 11.2) has a wideband signal to noise ratio of 6dB, which is a mathematical fact. This can only be reduced in the audio band by computation that pushes the noise out of band, as explained in Stanley P. Lip****z and John Vanderkooy's AES paper:
 
Why One-Bit Delta Sigma Conversion is Unsuitable to High Quality Applications 
 
The abstract: "Single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta converters are in principle imperfectible. We prove this fact. The reason, simply stated, is that, when properly dithered, they are in constant overload. Prevention of overload allows only partial dithering to be performed. The consequence is that distortion, limit cycles, instability, and noise modulation can never be totally avoided. We demonstrate these effects, and using coherent averaging techniques, are able to display the consequent profusion of nonlinear artefacts which are usually hidden in the noise floor. Recording, editing, storage, or conversion systems using single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta modulators, are thus inimical to audio of the highest quality. In contrast, multi-bit sigma-delta converters, which output linear PCM code, are in principle infinitely perfectible. (Here, multi-bit refers to at least two bits in the converter.) They can be properly dithered so as to guarantee the absence of all distortion, limit cycles, and noise modulation. The audio industry is misguided if it adopts 1-bit sigma-delta conversion as the basis for any high-quality processing, archiving, or distribution format to replace multi-bit, linear PCM."
 
This paper specifically addresses 1X DSD. 2X and 4X DSD address some of the shortcomings outlined in the paper, but as you know, 2X and 4X DSD recordings are very, very thin on the ground, and the number of 2X and 4X DSD recordings that remained DSD all the way through processing is markedly smaller. The link regarding three new ADCs that support DSD recording does not address the fact that the output of the vast majority of studio ADCs is PCM, and that most all studio processing is done in PCM, so any DSD recording is likely to be of mixed provenance, unless taken directly from a single-mic recording feed, or taken off of original master analog tapes (which have their own issues with noise.)
 
It's important to note that this is not a screed to tear down DSD, it is just to try to show there is no magical "direct to the source" format. Similarly to DSD's provenance issues, most modern PCM recordings go through an intermediary multibit delta-sigma stage within the A/D converter before being output as PCM, and (these days) are usually converted to a multibit delta-sigma output as part of the D/A conversion process. Records go through RIAA equalization and are completely dependent on the mechanics of the cutter used to make the master pressing, as well as the quality of the vinyl, the quality of the cartridge, the quality of the phono preamp, etc. 
 
If you're interested in delving more into the grey areas in PCM vs DSD, arguably the best comparison of DSD to PCM at the current state of the art is here, done by Charles Hansen of Ayre:
 
World’s First Valid Comparison of PCM versus DSD 
 
So what does all this talking get us? In the end, we have different philosophies.
 
DSD advocates believe that upending the entire recording chain (and somehow maintaining DSD through the chain) with playback through a pure DSD DAC will end up creating audio nirvana. It is important to note that most DACs that play back DSD actually (gasp) convert it to multibit delta-sigma during the D/A conversion process, so they are not pure DSD.
 
We believe that the widespread use of multibit delta-sigma D/A converters, as well as the use of mathematically intrusive strategies such as asynchronous sample rate conversion and open-form digital filters has limited the capability of the PCM format. As with DSD, only a handful of PCM DACs actually use R2R D/A conversion, so it is not pure PCM.
 
So, two different philosophies, two different approaches. We'll see if we can get closer to the original with Yggdrasil, and other companies will see if they can get closer to the original using DSD.  We'll see what the listeners say when they're both fully realized.
 
In the end, the market will likely shrug at both, since, by and large, it will be streaming compressed music via monthly subscription, rather than buying 2X DSD or 24/96 PCM. 

I listened to the Ayre tracks on an AK240 in a store. I could tell the difference on the AK240, but not on any other players. I think it might have to do with the native processing. All the other players converted to PCM. I can't identify it, and I haven't done a double blind, but the DSD music had a different feel to it, and I've wanted to get it back since.
 
Oct 6, 2014 at 3:41 PM Post #3,008 of 72,756

pietcux

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New Product Roll-outs ,
  Well now ,
  2014 ends up with our Schiit having a rather wide spread of Amplification Solutions ( all of em pretty darn good and at way-friendly price points ) . 
  Plus a spread of 4 DACs . 
  How will Schiit's Product range look at the end of 2015 ?  
  Two youngish talented designers with a Batting Average like they have , can't imagine there're gonna fall back into the Lazy-boy and go on Hiatus .  
  Tony in Michigan 
ps .  wouldn't mind having a nice pair of Headphones from these guys 


+1 I was also thinking of some Sxxxxt headphones....
 
Oct 6, 2014 at 3:52 PM Post #3,009 of 72,756

swspiers

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New Product Roll-outs ,
 
ps .  wouldn't mind having a nice pair of Headphones from these guys 


+1 for Schiit Cans!
 
Oct 6, 2014 at 5:41 PM Post #3,011 of 72,756

reddog

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Oct 6, 2014 at 7:00 PM Post #3,014 of 72,756

doublea71

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I'm hoping for a Schiit DAP in the future....call it the Schiit Can (or Kann, in keeping with the weird Nordic spelling conventions). Something with their typical clean utilitarian design that sounds great. No fancy UI to fuss with, perhaps akin to a Hisound Audio Studio or something like that...$200 or so with giant-slaying sound. I know they can do this...the question is do they want to? Maybe a project like this would end up being another cautionary tale of a chapter....fwiw, no DSD support is fine with me lol.
 
Oct 6, 2014 at 7:09 PM Post #3,015 of 72,756
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He also said no dice to combining a dac/amp in the same box.
wink_face.gif


Actually, I didn't. I have stated many times that we prefer to keep digital and analog systems separate for specific reasons, namely, managing digital noise and mitigating obsolescence (as explained on the Magni/Modi product FAQ.) However, how do you keep them separate on a 1.2 x 2.5 x 0.4" box that sells for $79? Answer: you don't. Horses for courses.
 
To be very clear: no headphones. We know nothing about transducers. As I've said before.
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/

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