Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up

[Lavcat]

First work and last work on this double album.

Anne-Sophie Mutter Plays Mozart

That's the Qobuz album I was playing.

 

[MindBreak]

Finally got some Schiit in my desk. Modi 3...... WOW. What have been doing the last couple decades? I used to have a Behringer 202 and a NI ADJ as my DAC. Even with lower consumer grade amp and speakers the sound it noticably better, Behringer A500 and PSB Alphas. Magni 2, Piety are already on their way and looking for add a Vali to the mix, see how far this rabbit hole goes. Luckily for my kids they get the Schiit that I don't use, get them hooked young. That way they won't have money for drugs or girls.

Welcome fellow Schiit Head,

It always starts with one piece of Schiit which quickly turns into a huge pile of Schiit. My gateway drug was the Asgard 3.

The Vali 3 is an excellent amp, but be careful as the Tube rabbit hole is far deeper than most.

Happy Listening!

 

[Les Strat]

Damnit, @Ripper2860 -- just when I think I can't delve any further into the audiophile rabbit hole you have to tell me how much an MC cart matters. Just when I'd reconciled myself the the fact that a MM cart is just fine. Grrrrr. (Seriously, though, enjoy! Happy it's already working so well. Nice little toy to start retirement with!) Guess I'll need to start researching to see if fitting a Sol with an MC cartridge is something that's workable or not.

Superb! Mine still at the same "Order Received" status but maybe not for much longer.

That made me smile @DACattack

I had a similar experience….

I re-entered the vinyl rabbit hole about 3 years ago after almost 20 years.

I stubbornly stuck to MM cartridges, progressing to a very nice Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250

However, ‘upgrading’ to an MC cartridge became an itch which I had to scratch; such is the plight of an incurable audiophile…

Of course, an MC cart also meant a new phono stage, and of course I ‘upgraded’ the first MC cart which I bought.

I won’t mention the name of the Phono stage out of respect for Jason and Schiit.
If I was buying today, I’d probably get a Stjarna…

I now use an Audio Technica ART 20 MC cart, having started with an ART 9 XI.

It is absolutely superb, but I was already pretty happy with the MM cart running through an inexpensive Rega Fono MM phono stage…
My current set up, using a Technics SL1200G turntable really is ‘end game’ vinyl, for me.

I’ll have a listen to Kind of Blue this evening.

 

[hammersrocco]

Ok, long, slow question.

One of the things I have always wished Schiit provided is non-volume controlled outputs in their preamp products. I am putting together an "upstairs" system using the Modius/Midgard form factor and product range. Price is right. Have the need for several analog inputs, so need the new Saga 2, which again, is perfect for what i am trying to do. So pls, don't think I am putting the Schiit down.

BUT to do what I want to do, which is using: 1) An active subwoofer with only an RCA single ended input, 2) Passive speakers and 3) A Midgard headphone amp. Had to give it a thunk. So, came up with the following:

• Modius SE OUT to Saga 2 SE IN 1
• Mani, DSD DAC and SACD player SE OUTs to Saga 2 SE IN 2,3,4
• Saga 2 Balanced OUT to Midgard Balanced IN, select Midgard Balanced IN permanently.
• Midgard SE OUT to active subwoofer SE IN
• Midgard Balanced OUT to Gjallarhorn Balanced IN
• Gjallarhorn speaker outs to... speakers.
• Obviously headphone OUT on Midgard, turn off Gjallarhorn and Active Subwoofer if only listening on headphones.

I have 3 questions

1. Combination depending on needs and availability of SE and Balanced OUTs and INs - is that OK? Will conversion happen in the connects described above?
   
   
2. Feels convoluted. Is this right? IT FEELS REALLY WEIRD to have to make the Midgard that path to amplification rather than the Saga 2. But that is the only way that I could work out to have both the active SE subwoofer, speaker amp and the headphone amplifier without splitters or worse, trying to insert SYS, ALL controlled by a SINGLE volume knob. If I don't want speakers, will turn off the Gjallarhorn and the active subwoofer. Does this makes sense?
   
   
3. Assuming this is fine, there is again the question of volume control. How to do it?
   - My intuition tells me to have the Saga 2 all the way up all the time and always control the volume from the Midgard, no matter how great the relay volume control on the Saga 2 is unfortunately. Feels like a waste but, read below.
   - This is, as opposed to turning the Midgard all the way up and control the volume from the Saga 2 WHEN USING SPEAKERS and vice versa, turning the Saga 2 all the way up and controlling from Midgard, when using headphones.
   - While I might be taking advantage of the Saga 2 sophisticated volume control, if feels like a disaster waiting to happen. Could blow my speakers or headphones if I lose track of what is controlling what and whether is all the way up or not.

Does this make sense ? Should it work? Although I am complaining about lack of non volumed controlled outputs, I am grateful for the Modius/Midgard and similar line. All of them provide both SE and Balanced INs AND OUTs. This would be even harder with the older Schiit I got downstairs.

If this OK, inserting a Lokius before the Midgard will give me all over EQ (speakers and headphones). IF I decide to do it, should be easy. No to mention getting an extra Gjallarhorn if I wanted to do the monoblock thing. Should be easy too. Hope this is OK, because I like it.

Thanks in advance for your help and I apologize for the long post. Hopefully that won't keep you from chiming in.

[EDIT:
Haven't read the replies, so will address those as needed. First I want to thank people in advance and second want to clarify that I had a small brain fart when talking about inputs to the Saga 2. I meant "Mani" - for a turntable. Looks like I wrote "Vali". - MAH BAD, again, meant Mani. CORRECTED

Thnx so much]

 

[fusion5]

@hammersrocco

I had a similar problem when choosing my components since I wanted balanced output to my active speakers and a balanced headphone out. I ended up with Kara F and Gungnir 2 and no balanced headphone out (SE on Kara F of course). I got some suggestions to use Kara F in conjunction with Mjolnir 3 but there seems to be no way to avoid double volume control besides cranking the first preamp all the way up (and maybe run it in passive mode).

In the end I decided to go with the single ended headphone out for now.

Maybe they will find a way to implement a Forkbeard assisted bypass mode which sets the volume to 100%, activates only a selected output which feeds a headphone amp and sets passive mode (optionally).

I'd prefer a solution that sets volume back to normal when I select the active speakers again so they wouldn't kill me.

 

[Timster]

^^^^^
First confusion for me is Vali into the Saga.... why? Is it needed here?
Vali is a Headphone Amp, and in your list above it's positioned as a source for the Saga.

Second one ... what's feeding the Modius and the DSD DAC? I assume there are other sources coming into that DAC?

Simplifying it for me would be :
Sources > Saga (For switching and volume control) > Midgard (for Headphones, and speaker outs) > Sub & Speakers
Run Midgard at max volume, and control via Saga.
...a nd yes, switch the Gjallarhorn and Sub off when headphoning

 

[Bowmoreman]

Appreciate the feedback all. It's seems like the consensus is I'm not doing Stjärna proper justice with a MM.

Now here's the question for the group. Is there a MC cart that will work with the carbon fiber arm of the Sol? Is anyone rocking their Sol with one? And, perhaps to frame the question more broadly, I have read here that some folks don't recommend a moving coil with a light tonearm. Care to share why that is?

Spending the vast majority of my audiophile life with digital sources, I have never messed much with turntable setup since Sol was essentially pre-configured with the AT cart--I did a few very minor tweaks and called it good. The turntable I had in high school was a pre-configured Technics. Didn't have to do a thing with it. Seems I have very much to learn here, and if anyone has links to share to read up on cartridges and turntable setup, I'm all ears. (I had no idea what a steuerpimpels was either. Ha!)

It is going to be all about compliance matching at the end of the day. I’ve no first hand experience with light arms and MCs; my last days with “light” tone arms were back in the Carbon Fibre was all the rage days back in the early/mid 80’s (I didn’t get my first MC until my Rega Planar 3, which, with the RB300 arm was a medium/medium+ mass tonearm.

All that said, given the Hana SL (not the new Mark II) only masses 5 grams, it might be workable - I had to add 3 grams at the headshell to get the compliance (and thus resonant frequency) right so it would track all levels on my test LP’s - so maybe?; but you’d have to research the compliance situation. I don’t know the specs on the Sol arm.

 

[bagwell359]

It is going to be all about compliance matching at the end of the day. I’ve no first hand experience with light arms and MCs; my last days with “light” tone arms were back in the Carbon Fibre was all the rage days back in the early/mid 80’s (I didn’t get my first MC until my Rega Planar 3, which, with the RB300 arm was a medium/medium+ mass tonearm.

All that said, given the Hana SL (not the new Mark II) only masses 5 grams, it might be workable - I had to add 3 grams at the headshell to get the compliance (and thus resonant frequency) right so it would track all levels on my test LP’s - so maybe?; but you’d have to research the compliance situation. I don’t know the specs on the Sol arm.

Most MC's tend to be lower compliance, so usually medium/higher mass arms. But there is a range, so no one size fits all, research is the key.

I went MC in 1980, never heard a MM that could match any of the MC's I owned.

 

[Bowmoreman]

Most MC's tend to be lower compliance, so usually medium/higher mass arms. But there is a range, so no one size fits all, research is the key.

I went MC in 1980, never heard a MM that could match any of the MC's I owned.

One never forgets one’s first Koetsu Rosewood, amiright?

Haven’t listened to an MM in prolly 30 years now in any system. I’m certain they’ve improved, but for me, they always had less bloom/air andsounded slightly veiled in the highs (especially noticeable on ribbon tweeters)… basically SLOW sounding and bit “dry” versus MC and the sound (to my ears) of real acoustic instruments in real space. I always ascribed it to the fact that in MC’s (and most especially low output MC’s) the “moving mass” (the coils) is so dramatically lighter/lesser than moving iron/magnets, that it’s always going to be “faster” and more responsive due to physics. But that could be completely poppycock, or at least lessened with more modern (and presumably lighter and more powerful) magnet formulations. My last two MM’s were Grado MCZ and a Linn K9… Not cheap back in those days - the Grado was $300 in the mid-80s, and the K9 was, IIRC around $275-300 as well… after that it was Koetsu (from memory I think it was around $1500 new in ‘88), AQ7000 ($1500 new in ‘90), Scantech/Shelter, Denon (“slummed with Denons for a LONG time because they were reasonably cheap (read under $500) and putting two boys through private HS and University years…) until recently jumping back in to “higher end MC’s” with the Hana SL.

Of course the biggest advantage of MM’s is 10x the output, making downstream gain a doddle. Again, physics. If I *ever* manage to score an additional SME309 (not the other SME arms) replacement headshell, it’d make cartridge “racing” feasible (back in the day, I had fantasized about getting a second headshell, and an identical cartridge (then it was my AQ7000) and wiring that one for reverse phase… (back then NO preamps had a reverse phase capability). But convinced myself that THAT particular feature/capability wasn’t worth the scratch.

But unless/until that happens (spare headshell), not going to try swapping/racing anything; with my arthritis it takes me 4-5 hours to replace and fully install/align a new cartridge, and it’s fiddly AF because of my unfortunately limited finger dexterity and grip. Not worth the time and risk, just to “see” what today’s MM’s can do. If I hear one in someone else’s system, that would be more than good enough to ascertain if they’ve “fixed” the “flaw” that I always could NOT “unhear”. It’d take 5 minutes with Lionel Hampton/Stan Getz to know for certain. Vibraphone (well recorded) is an extremely telling test of high frequencies, harmonics and 3d bloom/airiness…

 

[bcowen]

Appreciate the feedback all. It's seems like the consensus is I'm not doing Stjärna proper justice with a MM.

Now here's the question for the group. Is there a MC cart that will work with the carbon fiber arm of the Sol? Is anyone rocking their Sol with one? And, perhaps to frame the question more broadly, I have read here that some folks don't recommend a moving coil with a light tonearm. Care to share why that is?

Spending the vast majority of my audiophile life with digital sources, I have never messed much with turntable setup since Sol was essentially pre-configured with the AT cart--I did a few very minor tweaks and called it good. The turntable I had in high school was a pre-configured Technics. Didn't have to do a thing with it. Seems I have very much to learn here, and if anyone has links to share to read up on cartridges and turntable setup, I'm all ears. (I had no idea what a steuerpimpels was either. Ha!)

One excellent resource is Vinyl Engine. Tons of information....

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartrid...chi=&stid=&masslo=&masshi=&notes=&prlo=&prhi=

 

[DACattack]

The Sumiko MM's are made by Excel, who also makes the popular Hana MC cartridges. They make nice stuff, and they've been doing it for decades.

Great info. I didn't know that Sumiko and Hana were made by the same parent company. I have the AT-VM95 MM cart right now, and typically use it with the microlinear stylus, but I also have the Shibata stylus that seems to pair best with classical records, particularly well-recorded ones. I do like how easy it is to swap styli (styluses?). I will look at the 540/740 line and certainly take a look at what might be coming out from them this summer. Thanks!

It is going to be all about compliance matching at the end of the day.

That seems to be the critical factor. I'll learn all I can about it. I know you love and recommend the Hana MC carts with Stjärna with your turntable. Doing some reading this morning before logging onto for work and I found a nice summary on Audio-Technica's website. https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/support/audio-solutions-question-of-the-week-how-do-i-match-a-phono-cartridge-to-my-turntable#:~:text=Some cartridge manufacturers, including Audio,to compliance at 10 Hz.

Most MC's tend to be lower compliance, so usually medium/higher mass arms. But there is a range, so no one size fits all, research is the key.

Effective mass of the Sol's tonearm is 13.0 grams, which I believe puts it at the lower end of what would be considered a medium mass tonearm, I think...?

I now use an Audio Technica ART 20 MC cart, having started with an ART 9 XI.

It is absolutely superb, but I was already pretty happy with the MM cart running through an inexpensive Rega Fono MM phono stage…
My current set up, using a Technics SL1200G turntable really is ‘end game’ vinyl, for me.

Oh man, so I haven't been the only one lost in the vinyl cartridge wilderness. Thanks for sharing your journey. Happy you've found your end game setup. I'm quite content with the Sol, even though it's a fiddly thing and unconventional, but it sounds great even with an entry MM cartridge and punches far above its weight. That's a fantastic turntable you have!

ALL:
Thanks everyone for chiming in and setting me on the right research path. You're the best. Besides enjoying the lighthearted fun on this thread (well, from everyone except @Ripper2860 of course ), this kind of knowledge and experience sharing is invaluable. Not sure where I'll end up--with an upgraded MM or MC (if I can find something compliant)--but I can see I have an interesting journey ahead of me. There are a couple different turntable shops in the Twin Cities, so I hope I can get a chance to listen and compare cartridges myself this summer.

Happy Friday all!

Edit: @bcowen Just saw your message and link. Thank you. Looks like an excellent resource!

 

[bcowen]

Effective mass of the Sol's tonearm is 13.0 grams, which I believe puts it the lower end of what would be considered a medium mass tonearm, I think...?

I'd agree with that. The arm I have is 13.5 grams and generally considered to be medium mass. It worked fabulously with a Koetsu Black which is very low compliance. The Hanas I've looked at have higher compliance at 10 x 10-6cm/dyne (versus the 5 x 10-6cm/dyne of the Koetsu). Note the "10-6cm/dyne" is a fairly standard specification parameter for compliance, so looking at the first number of that spec is the comparative value. Higher number = more compliant, lower number = less compliant. I'm but one data point here so can only project, but a Hana (or other cartridge) with a compliance of 10 or above will likely work fine in your tonearm.

 

[Ripper2860]

... Besides enjoying the lighthearted fun on this thread (well, from everyone except @Ripper2860 of course )

My work here is not done until I either disappoint, frustrate, or perplex.

** Now that my work here is done for today, I'm off to find the next Happy Hour.

 

[bcowen]

My work here is not done until I either disappoint, frustrate, or perplex.

** Now that my work here is done for today, I'm off to find the next Happy Hour.

After you retire, the next happy hour is never more than an hour away.

 

[DACattack]

@bcowen Sweet! Looking up the effective mass of the Sol tonearm this morning, it was heavier than I expected, so it appears I may have more options than I initially surmised. That's fantastic news, although it means my cartridge spreadsheet as I research this morass will turn out to be far larger and more complicated than I expected and my wallet may take a bigger hit than I imagined.

My work here is not done until I either disappoint, frustrate, or perplex.

Take heart in a job very well done, my friend.