[tafens]

One of the things I was told early in my exploration of all things audio is that rapid AB testing is likely to lead to fatigue where everything sounds the same. The poster who told me that advised listening for more extended periods before changing from A to B. I’ve been doing that for years and I think there’s some truth to it.

The ears fatigue quickly in this regard, at
least my ears. My experience of rapid A/B switching is that any differences heard this way are most clear on the first few switches. Then it gets harder to hear them, and after five switches or so I can almost doubt what I heard the first times, although I still know what I heard.
More than once I have found that the first impressions are incomplete and make-or-break differences can still appear with extended listening.
For example, when rolling tubes with my Lyr3, I thought that the new tube sounded better, more spacious, better detail and sound stage. Only later after a few days I realised that the engagement - the toe-tappingness or PRaT - I felt with some music I love was much less. So out it went. The point is that this took a few days and casual listening to realise. This is why I’m a bit sceptical towards short term blind listening tests. Don’t get me wrong, they do have their use, and they do tell something, but they also don’t necessarily tell the whole story.

That said, I may just be giving more time for my brain to fool me into thinking there’s a difference. I notice that how much I enjoy my sound system is far more dependent on things like my mood, noise in the house and noise exposure that day then the sound system itself.

Absolutely. I can think to myself when listening that this is a great song and I usually enjoy it more, and why don’t I feel that now, nothing in the setup has changed? Then realising that there is one thing that has changed: Me, because I’m a bit stressed over something or just not in that mood.
That said, the right music at the right time can also relieve stress I feel or make my mood better! Music is fantastic that way.

 

[JLoud]

The way the setup in his A/B testing seems sound. But what I have found works the best for me is to listen to at least an entire song, then swap and listen to entire song again. Or even several songs, switch headphones, list to same block of songs. Quick switching seems to mask the subtleties that otherwise make all the difference.

 

[bcowen]

The ears fatigue quickly in this regard, at
least my ears. My experience of rapid A/B switching is that any differences heard this way are most clear on the first few switches. Then it gets harder to hear them, and after five switches or so I can almost doubt what I heard the first times, although I still know what I heard.
More than once I have found that the first impressions are incomplete and make-or-break differences can still appear with extended listening.
For example, when rolling tubes with my Lyr3, I thought that the new tube sounded better, more spacious, better detail and sound stage. Only later after a few days I realised that the engagement - the toe-tappingness or PRaT - I felt with some music I love was much less. So out it went. The point is that this took a few days and casual listening to realise. This is why I’m a bit sceptical towards short term blind listening tests. Don’t get me wrong, they do have their use, and they do tell something, but they also don’t necessarily tell the whole story.

For me, this is a major factor that is very hard (if not impossible) to quantify or evaluate in A/B tests. There are many tubes I've tried that are technically better in one or more respects, but ultimately fail to engage me in the music. Some of these I've tried multiple times to minimize the influence of mood and environment, yet the result is the same. Doesn't mean they are 'bad' tubes, just that they don't synergize with my equipment and/or personal preferences. Quick A/B and blind tests can be very useful for listening for technical differences, but not very useful (IMO) for determining musical differences.

 

[jonathan c]

If my Grandmum were still around, she would likely say: “if God wanted us to instantly A-B, God would have given us four ears”. .

 

[Barnstormer13]

If my Grandmum were still around, she would likely say: “if God wanted us to instantly A-B, God would have given us four ears”. .

My grand mother would say, “When I was your age We used tube amplifiers!”

 

[gKalkin]

Did you try to change tubes? Not so many people like FV with stock tubes. But it's way better with tube swapping. I am waiting for my FV and I know that I need to invest another $1k in tubes. Or at least invest in 2 input tubes.

No, I didn't try swapping tubes. Was not really willing to go out of the return period and spend a bunch more money just to see if some new tubes made a difference. At one point I had a Lyr 3 with 5-6 different tubes and I couldn't hear a difference with any of them.

The way the setup in his A/B testing seems sound. But what I have found works the best for me is to listen to at least an entire song, then swap and listen to entire song again. Or even several songs, switch headphones, list to same block of songs. Quick switching seems to mask the subtleties that otherwise make all the difference.

Yea, I spent some time listening to full songs on each as well and I did feel something different from Folkvangr. However, I think the further I get into this game, the more I find that I just want simplicity. So I guess my priorities just don't align with owning FV. Was still a fun ride, though!

I do find rapid A/B testing to be quite fatiguing. After a while, it isn't even listening to music. I tried to keep those sessions short and then listen to one of the two amps for a few songs and then listen to the same songs with the other. I found that my wandering mind probably has more of an impact than the amp, haha.

Absolutely. I can think to myself when listening that this is a great song and I usually enjoy it more, and why don’t I feel that now, nothing in the setup has changed? Then realising that there is one thing that has changed: Me, because I’m a bit stressed over something or just not in that mood.
That said, the right music at the right time can also relieve stress I feel or make my mood better! Music is fantastic that way.

I find that my mindset probably has the most impact on how much I enjoy my tunes. I could be listening to an HE-1 and if I am stressed out then I won't connect with the music.

With all that said, this is a subjective hobby. If you hear a difference that makes a real difference in your enjoyment of music then don't listen to anyone who says otherwise.

 

[bcowen]

I find that my mindset probably has the most impact on how much I enjoy my tunes. I could be listening to an HE-1 and if I am stressed out then I won't connect with the music.

With all that said, this is a subjective hobby. If you hear a difference that makes a real difference in your enjoyment of music then don't listen to anyone who says otherwise.

I totally agree.

That said, I got my Folkvangr about 3 weeks ago and unfortunately haven't been able to spend much time with it. What time I have had left me kind of on the fence about it. Not that it doesn't sound good, just that it didn't sound great to my ears. Also have (had) a problem with the volume pot being noisy -- when rotated with no music signal there was a substantial scratchy noise coming through both channels. Today I finally had some free time, so after listening a couple hours decided to swap the input tubes with some 6N23P's (Russian numbered near-equivalent to a 6DJ8). Two things happened: one, the scratchy noise went away. So that was a tube problem, not a volume pot problem. And two, I'm not so much on the fence any more. Substantial change for the better -- more extended bass with better articulation and slam, and a huge improvement in the mids with harmonic detailing, depth, and color. It only makes sense that the tubes will make a bigger difference in the resulting sound with Folkvangr than most other amps as we're listening to the tubes themselves more than most other amps. I've been rolling tubes for many years, but the sonic change from the tube roll here is as big as I've ever heard, quite honestly. The only bad part is that I have probably 30 or 40 different sets of 6922/6DJ8's (and substitutes) in the stash to listen to, so I guess I'll be busy for a while. And that's just the input tubes.

(these are labeled "International" but they are Russian SWGP 6N23P's. Due to the OEM labeling I can't tell what year they are though)

 

[1Audiophool]

Hmmmm you got me thinking so I could go from the yggy to the folk and then to my ragnarok 2 which has plenty of power for the susvara and still get the tubbiness of the folk.

I was thinking a similar setup… Bifrost2/64 > Folkvangr > V280 > Susvara. So I can see what the FV sound like with Sus since V280 powers them ok. Will be updating amp soon

 

[DACattack]

@bcowen Interesting that you've found the 6N23Ps a good match and a nice improvement -- I have a pair coming from Ukraine (fingers crossed they arrive) via eBay -- and I'm still patiently waiting for my Folkvangr to come out of backorder. Fingers crossed I'll get it by the end of the month. Are your impressions of your Folkvangr from your ZMFs or the 6XXs? Both?

 

[bcowen]

@bcowen Interesting that you've found the 6N23Ps a good match and a nice improvement -- I have a pair coming from Ukraine (fingers crossed they arrive) via eBay -- and I'm still patiently waiting for my Folkvangr to come out of backorder. Fingers crossed I'll get it by the end of the month. Are your impressions of your Folkvangr from your ZMFs or the 6XXs? Both?

I've only tried the ZMF's so far. Impedance switch off. Interestingly, I preferred the stock 6N1P's in high gain, but the 6N23P's sound better in low gain. They have a touch of hardness to them in high gain that goes away in low. I tried the impedance switch a couple times, but can't tell that it makes any difference (with the ZMF's). Popped in a pair of Tungsram E88CC's late last night and listened for a bit. Love those tubes in my Cary DAC, and they are very different sounding than the 6N23P's in the FV, but not sure they are better or not at this point.

 

[jonathan c]

I've only tried the ZMF's so far. Impedance switch off. Interestingly, I preferred the stock 6N1P's in high gain, but the 6N23P's sound better in low gain. They have a touch of hardness to them in high gain that goes away in low. I tried the impedance switch a couple times, but can't tell that it makes any difference (with the ZMF's). Popped in a pair of Tungsram E88CC's late last night and listened for a bit. Love those tubes in my Cary DAC, and they are very different sounding than the 6N23P's in the FV, but not sure they are better or not at this point.

Not directly FV-related, but the Tungsram E88CC s are my favourite tube in the 6922 / 6DJ8 category. Wondrously musical match to Foton 6N6P s in the Valhalla 2!

 

[DACattack]

I've only tried the ZMF's so far. Impedance switch off. Interestingly, I preferred the stock 6N1P's in high gain, but the 6N23P's sound better in low gain. They have a touch of hardness to them in high gain that goes away in low. I tried the impedance switch a couple times, but can't tell that it makes any difference (with the ZMF's). Popped in a pair of Tungsram E88CC's late last night and listened for a bit. Love those tubes in my Cary DAC, and they are very different sounding than the 6N23P's in the FV, but not sure they are better or not at this point.

Given that the architecture of Folkvangr brings you about as close to the tubes as possible, with 30 to 40 sets of input tubes to play around with you're going to need a spreadsheet to track everything. Ha! Thanks for sharing your impressions thus far.

 

[Mike-WI]

"This [Folkvangr] is the worst measuring product we have ever made..."
- Jason
8/10/22
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZqCWt2_qqB-UD0-pcPpxCw
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

[disrecard, posted here by accident]

 

[szore]

These should be showing up in classifieds any day now....