[AdamCalifornia]

Hi all! I hope that this might be of some interest to you.

Sound and Vision
Consumer Electronics Show (CES), Jan. 2005, Las Vegas
CES Showstoppers- What's NOT HOT. Multichannel Music.
"DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD AREN'T DEAD--YET

. And you could find a few die-hard supporters at CES to KEEP both formats alive ....multichannel recording engineer Elliot Scheiner. But there were NO big hardware or software announcements, and the few-and-far-between panels were the only places where anyone was really talking about either format. With new releases having come almost completely to a HALT

and DualDisc future uncerttain it looks like DVD-Audio and SACD are likely remain AUDIOPHILE PLAYTHINGs."

The Perfect Vision
From the Editor
"High Definition Format War
The good news that we're about to get a high-definition disc format later this year that will have picture and SOUND quality light years beyond DVD ...
DVD's incredible popularity is no doubt due in part to a single, universal standard. Contrast its success with the FAILURE

of the DVD-Audio and SACD formats, which competed with each other to become CD's replacement."

High-Definition Video and High-Resolution Audio on a 5" Disc, by Robert Harley
...It's interesting to note that Direct Stream Digital (DSD) the encoding format developed by Sony for SACD is NOT part of the Blu-ray specifications. THIS FACT, coupled with the recent SHARP DECLINE in SACD titles from Sony Music suggests that SACD is a DEAD END.

That is a shame, because SACD is a terrific format, SONICALLY

and functionally."

(My capitalizations in above quotations.)

I think that those quotations depict the situation fairly.
By the way, in case some of you do not know, Robert Harley is an audio GURU.

See You on the Scary

Side of the Moon

Adam

 

[dura]

Quote:

Contrast its success with the FAILURE of the DVD-Audio and SACD formats, which competed with each other to become CD's replacement."

IMO this is the main culprit, and so incredibly unneccessary stupid; everyone looses, the recordcompanies, the hardwaremanufacturers, and last but not least, us, the consumers.

 

[Illah]

The culprit isn't competition, but a lack of consumer demand. DVD's are cheap, easy to use, and provide a noticable benefit to consumers. That benefit isn't picture quality for the most part, but the 'bonus features'. The bonus features pushed DVD adoption more than anything in the early years, and were the biggest selling point against the VHS standard, picture & sound quality were the #2 feature. The advent of affordable large screen, HDTV, and home theater in a box systems provided the final blow to VHS and stereo soundtracks in movies.

With SACD and DVD-A there is ZERO consumer demand for these products. Nobody thinks CD's aren't good enough except a very, very small minority of audiophiles. And let's face it, the Top 100 CD's of any given month probably account for 75% of all music sales, and the Top 100 of any given month is stuff like Britney Spears. There is NO reason for 192/24 5.1 recording of her garbage.

That's why MP3's, which are actually LOWER fidelity, are hitting like wildfire. There is a massive consumer demand for such a format. It fits into iPods and Cell Phones, is downloadable, plays on MORE systems than CD, not LESS, etc.

I give SACD and DVD-A five more years tops

--Illah

 

[bundee1]

<<Edited by moderator...no personal attacks, please>>

The biggest selling point of DVD has always been the picture quality, that and durability. Some VHS tapes already had bonus features but the picture always deteriorated from the first play on.

 

[canloader]

I know that Neil Young is a big Multichannel DVD-A advocate. Placing numerous microphones around the stage. Cool effect. I guess he's one we can rely on for Multi-channel... But to tell you the truth I haven't been listening to MC for awhile.

 

[MonkeyMan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia DVD-Audio and SACD are likely remain AUDIOPHILE PLAYTHINGs."

Umm, nothing scary here ... 45 rpm 200 gram vinyl reissues are alive and well as "audiophile playthings." New music won't show up on SACD very often, but the reissue market is thriving. Dig the RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, Fantasy, MFSL, etc. labels...

For new music, CD's are still being produced last time I checked. In the end it doesn't really matter all that much one way or another; this IS only a hobby (at least for me).

 

[Eagle_Driver]

It is so scary. Although MP3 downloads have fallen on somewhat hard times right now with the rest of the recording industry (total number of MP3 downloads have actually fallen significantly this year compared to the same period last year due to the lack of quality new music releases), multichannel music has never really gotten off the ground. The overwhelming majority of DualDisc releases these days come from Sony BMG (especially the Columbia and Epic labels, which don't support DVD-A at all). And of those Sony BMG DualDiscs, the overwhelming majority of those have no multichannel tracks - only stereo tracks. (And multichannel audio content is required for DVD-A certification - the Classic Records HDADs cannot carry the DVD-Audio logo even though the 192/24 side requires a DVD-Audio player, because they are stereo only, and lack 5.1 multichannel tracks.)

 

[omedon]

SACD & DVD-A dead? Are you kidding me. What is going to kill it? CD, Vinyl? Everyone says how SACD & DVD-A are having such a hard time with adoption because of the futile format war.

HD-DVD & Blu-Ray only promise to bring ANOTHER futile format war.

Another big reason that DVDA & SACD don't sell as well as they could is because most people are uninterested or don't notice a difference. I am guessing that this number is only going to increase when we go to a new format. Will people really be able to tell 32bits from 24 bits if they couldn't tell 24 from 16? Or didn't care to tell the difference? Many consumers just look for a system that will give them the most bass, looks good in their kitchen, looks shiny, etc. Sound quality is very far down on the list of most peoples priorities. CD's reproduce sound perfectly, remember

.

I think that CD is here to stay for a long time. It will likely be the last big physical format before everything is internet based. DVD-A & SACD will be around for a while. Maybe the top 100 won't be pumped out on these formats but I expect that the classics will be continued to be re-released. Music companies love selling you the same thing more than once. Kind of Blue on Vinyl, on Cassette, on CD, on Remastered CD, on 5.1 SACD, on remastered Stereo & 5.1 Hybrid SACD, etc. Eventually they will like to release it on a new format as well but they aren't going to skip any steps along the way. They will milk each album for all it's worth.

As long as people like me are willing to buy them record companies will make them.

In order for a new audio format to even have a chance of surpassing DVD-A or SACD it will need to be included in a universal HD-DVD/BluRay player. And then said players will need to reach an adoption rate GREATER than DVD. And then the music companies will actually have to market the new format something they have failed miserably at doing with DVDA/SACD.

I don't think that SACD or DVD-A are going anywhere. There will always be some support from the same people who are buying and enjoying them now. I just spent $1000 on my player. I know I am not going to throw it out.

People keep looking for a CD-killer. I think it has already arrived in the form of iTunes. That is what works for most people. It is convenient. Look how popular cell phones are. Sound quality stinks compared to land lines, the costs are way higher but it is more convenient. I don't see any new format catching on. We will buy DVD-A, SACD, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray. But nobody else will. Not everybody is an audiophile and that is okay.

Just my two cents.

 

[Illah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundee1 The biggest selling point of DVD has always been the picture quality, that and durability. Some VHS tapes already had bonus features but the picture always deteriorated from the first play on.

Not in the mass market. Yes, DVD's did look 'better', but most people don't need better. Using a playstation as a DVD player on your 20" TV with the sound playing through the TV speakers...you may as well be watching VHS. The mass market was convinced that the investment in a new player and updating their collection was valuable on the bonus features, cast and director commentary, snazzy menus, on/off subtitles, and other whiz-bang things. Picture quality was a selling point but it didn't drive mass adoption. Mass adoption came when the players got dirt cheap and the 'extras' made DVD's a better value than VHS, not because of enhanced resolution and component output.

--Illah

 

[Garbz]

Yeah they are not going anywhere. That's the main problem. No wide spread adoption, but then again they ahve enough support to keep runnin in the niche market.

What is interesting is an article in a business journal I read recently (can't remember the name but I'll see if I can find it). It discussed the change in consumer mentality from the BetamaxVHS wars to now. Betamax vs VHS was a war, which ultimately suffered casualties, however the consumers know this, can see this and will not let it escellate again.

What can be learnt form this is that the war is not as sustainable as it was back then. The only looser here will be sony and toshiba as widespread adoption will fail unless one format is guaranteed.

Excuse spelling i'm very tired.

 

[jimmyjames8]

I think all of these same epitaphs were said about vinyl and it's still kicking. The biggest (scariest) scenario is if Sony pulls out all together, stops making SACD discs and players. But even if they do, and it may already be so, SACD will remain and audiophile niche/boutique product. Musicdirect, Acoustic Sounds and Elusive Disc are doing just fine selling to audiophiles, not to mention all the labels that are doing just fine selling SACD's thru those and other boutique outlets.

 

[carlosgp]

Come on! Vynil is not kicking, is merely surviving inside a small niche market. Many people appreciate it, but vinyl is out of the game now.

 

[riffer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlosgp Come on! Vynil is not kicking, is merely surviving inside a small niche market. Many people appreciate it, but vinyl is out of the game now.

But it still outsells DVD-A and SACD combined:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...arEndStats.pdf

I am sitting on the fence for now. I have enough Betamax tapes sitting around to remind me why

 

[tkam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by omedon SACD & DVD-A dead? Are you kidding me. What is going to kill it? CD, Vinyl? Everyone says how SACD & DVD-A are having such a hard time with adoption because of the futile format war. HD-DVD & Blu-Ray only promise to bring ANOTHER futile format war.

Well it's true that SACD and DVD-A probably won't truely be dead for quite a few years as there will always be some small outfit still making them. They are however dead in the sense of becoming a mainstream media.

It's a little off-topic but have you been following the HD-DVD & Blu-Ray battle? Blu-Ray has pretty much won at this point, with Fox choosing it a few weeks ago and with Universal about to jump ship from hd-dvd to blu-ray (universal music group has already chosen blu-ray for the next-gen of hi-rez discs). At this point it's only a matter of time before Toshiba will abandon hd-dvd they just don't have anywhere near the content provider support that blu-ray has.

 

[omedon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkam It's a little off-topic but have you been following the HD-DVD & Blu-Ray battle? Blu-Ray has pretty much won at this point, with Fox choosing it a few weeks ago and with Universal about to jump ship from hd-dvd to blu-ray (universal music group has already chosen blu-ray for the next-gen of hi-rez discs). At this point it's only a matter of time before Toshiba will abandon hd-dvd they just don't have anywhere near the content provider support that blu-ray has.

Touche.

I have recently read this but I wouldn't call it over till the fat lady sings. Samsung is already making a universal player so who knows?

When people say that current Hi-Def Audio is dead I take it to mean that something else is going to supersede it and catch on. I just don't see this happening. Practically everyone in the world who buys music at this point in time has a cd-player, even the vinyl junkies. That means their is a huge potential market for studio cd's. DVD also has fantastic adoption and while most people who have dvd-players don't havd DVD-A they can still enjoy 5.1/videos and other features through regular DVD-video playback. Which is fine since most of them don't seem to notice or care about the quality difference anyways. It will likely take the new Hi-Def Video formats even longer to catch on than DVD did. This is because people will need to buy expensive new HDTV's to gain most of the benefit of the new format. Something that wasn't necessary with DVD.

Any new format is going to have to compete against all the previously released formats making it harder than ever to get a foothold in the market. Studio's will continue to gleefully pump out CD's, which are good enough for most everybody, as long as people continue to buy them.