SACD
Oct 16, 2008 at 11:21 PM Post #91 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by nnotis /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I can't agree that 16 bit always sounds the same as 24. With some recordings, it certainly does. But even with the most favorable dithering settings, some of my mixes lose a bit of depth when brought down to 16 bit.

Ears can be damaged by noises much louder than 100 db. But doesn't the noise need to be sustained to cause damage? At symphonic concerts, aren't there brief spikes in amplitude that exceed 100 db? Perhaps someone can chime in with specific numbers.



It may not sound noticeably different for listening purposes, but having recorded and mastered my own recordings, I can assure you that 24 bit is essential for mastering because you can do so much more with the dynamic range. 16 bit is only good for the finished product. I'm sure with a very, very high end system you will get better results with 24 bit audio.

That being said, I like SACDs and I'm sad there's no SACD-R's.
 
Oct 17, 2008 at 4:42 AM Post #92 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by nnotis /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I can't agree with this statement either. I saw a big improvement in clarity even when I had a 23 inch screen with only 768 horizontal lines. Blue Ray also seems to do a better job of handling delicate color gradient.


How Important is Resolution? It's all about pixel counts... or is it?

See ya
Steve
 
Oct 17, 2008 at 4:52 AM Post #93 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by nnotis /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ears can be damaged by noises much louder than 100 db. But doesn't the noise need to be sustained to cause damage? At symphonic concerts, aren't there brief spikes in amplitude that exceed 100 db? Perhaps someone can chime in with specific numbers.


100 dB is the volume of a chain saw. Yes, hearing damage depends on the length of sustained exposure, and most music doesn't have sustained peaks. And yes, if you are a tympanist in a symphony orchestra, your loudest hits would be about that loud. But sitting in the audience, it wouldn't be that loud. And most people over the age of reason don't play music that loud in the home.

If you turned up a regular old CD to its full dynamic range (which would have to exceed the room tone of at least 20dB), you would have peaks as loud as a jet plane taking off... almost as loud as a jackhammer. To do the same with an SACD the peaks would be as loud as a jet engine close up or a 38 pistol firing.

Sounds louder than 80dB are considered potentially dangerous. Most music doesn't much exceed 40dB. Turn that up to exceed the room tone and you have 60-70dB spikes. Plenty of room.

The extended dynamic range of SACDs extends downwards, not upwards. So to experience the benefit of added low volume level resolution, you need to turn the volume up... louder than you would ever want to.

See ya
Steve
 
Oct 17, 2008 at 7:20 AM Post #94 of 128
Having been listening to SACD for about 6 months now, and CD for 20 years, I can answer the OP question: Listening to SACD doesn't spoil your CD listening pleasure!

Much of what has been posted in this thread is quite correct about the limitations of SACD - but they are infact the limitations of any source format, i.e. the quality of the original music that has been used to produce the CD/LP/SACD. However I think its worth adding that the one benefit that SACD has over other formats is in the playback of the source, i.e. not adding in any more unwanted garbage to the source , like jitter for example.
The way I see CD is that Sony looked long and hard at what was wrong with CD format (the PCM and the D/A conversion process limitations) and came up with a way to overcome these problems - i.e. DSD. Of course, in the last 10 years there have been great improvements in DAC systems, which means that it is possible to overcome the D/A problem by the use of a pretty expensive off board DAC. So there are two routes available, SACD or CD with an improved DAC. In these cases, where the source material for SACD and CD are the same, then the resultant playback is going to be comparable. However, DSD is a living recording system (I use it at home on my studio rig) and with a DSD source and DSD playback, the quality is an impressive improvement - recordings sound extremely lifelike. And there are many Classical recordings which have also used DSD, and there resultant playback is also excellent. Of course, if the engineers pour curry over the console and mess up the recording, then the playback is runied, but there is nothing we can do about that!

And if you have a 5.1 system, then the results of DSD recordings of an orchestra should blow your mind! In fact, quite a few rock albums are also extremly good in this format (Elton John's back catalogue is a fine example).

I'm very happy with my SACD setup, and many of my friends that have listened to it have remarked how 'analogue' it sounds! But when you add an good headamp into the mix with cans, vinyl gets blown away.

I have also found that the average price for SACD in my collection has been ~9 dollars, so its been quite a cheap format to buy into as well.
 
Oct 17, 2008 at 8:46 AM Post #95 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by nnotis /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I can't agree with this statement either. I saw a big improvement in clarity even when I had a 23 inch screen with only 768 horizontal lines. Blue Ray also seems to do a better job of handling delicate color gradient.


that can't be true, blu-ray is only good for mixing
smile.gif
 
Oct 17, 2008 at 9:15 AM Post #96 of 128
I think that the limitations on SACD are entirely limitations based on marketing failures.

Absence of widely used digital connections

Sony, by insisting on draconian copy protection features, released SACDs without providing an appropriate way to get SACD signals out. SACD signals could not transmit over standard S/PDIF connections, and of course, SACDs predated the introduction of HDMI 1.3. The remaining choices were grim:

(a) using a firewire connection between the SACD player and a receiver (or preamp or DAC). This was called i.Link, and it had a number of nice technical features (in particular, it used a buffered network packet protocol, eliminating most jitter issues). Unfortunately i.Links didn't generally work across vendors; two major vendors investing in i.Link were Pioneer and Denon, but their systems were not compatible. Indeed, Denon quickly abandoned i.Link for its proprietary DenonLink.

(b) Output data over analog cables. This required high quality DACs in the SACD players (making them, at the time of introduction expensive). More serious, at this point in time, many high-end surround sound systems were being supported by AV receivers or preamps that converted analog signals to the digital domain for DSP processing, bass management, time delay management, equalization, and all the other processing that surround systems do. Of course, the situation with 2-channel playback was easier, but the labels were pushing surround-sound playback. Thus a signal transferred in this way would go the following transformations: DSD -> PCM -> D/A -> cable to receiver -> A/D -> DSP management ->D/A -> cable to speaker. I think many receivers failed to maintain the high quality of SACD in these transitions.

Now, of course, we have HDMI 1.3, but it has arrived far too late (and, since its use is dominated as a video format, it often poses problems in practice for consumers who want to configure their systems to listen to music).

The competition with DVD-A

The competition with DVD-A left consumers uneasy about which type of system to purchase. Early universal players were expensive and flakey and unwieldy. Today, of course, one can buy a Pioneer 48AV for $99 or an Oppo 980H for $170, but early universal players helped dampen interest in the format.

Poor distribution channels

SACDs were poorly marked and in some cases unmarked (or mismarked). Online retailers routinely mixed up orders for Red Book CDs and SACDs. Often the cover art and packaging of a SACD release and the corresponding CD release was minimal.

Technical mumbo-jumbo

The language of consumer audio is full of pseudo-scientific claims, but the problem appears to be particular acute in the realm of high-resolution audio. The competing claims made for PCM versus DSD are a perfect example (successful transcoding between the two should be inaudible to the listener). Furthermore, since many redbook DVDs claim to be 24-bit remasters or to use DSD during the remastering process, it is no wonder consumers were confused

Is there a difference?

It is clear to me that there is a difference between Red Book CDs and SACDs -- beyond the mastering. Anyone who has listened to a work of high dynamic range with his finger on the volume control knows what I mean -- CD resolution in quiet passages is often apallingly bad.

I miss the absence of new SACDs. I hope that they may some day come back, although I am not holding my breath.
 
Oct 17, 2008 at 11:24 AM Post #97 of 128
I'm sorry. I don't hear an appreciable difference between CD and SACD.

And, if I may be so modest, if I don't hear a difference, then virtually nobody hears a difference...

...except for those with vivid imaginations and some kind of weird, vested fetish interest in esoteric failed technology.

The marketing for SACD only failed to the extent that it didn't make a pot of money for Sony.

I daresay that the marketing for the SACD format succeeded, for the average consumer, in that it was so botched and inconsequential that they failed to adopt it.

I would love to embrace my past SACD players now, and have my row of SACDs. And I would, if they'd made a positive difference in my life, rather than been an expensive annoyance.
 
Oct 17, 2008 at 1:52 PM Post #98 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm sorry. I don't hear an appreciable difference between CD and SACD.

And, if I may be so modest, if I don't hear a difference, then virtually nobody hears a difference...

...except for those with vivid imaginations and some kind of weird, vested fetish interest in esoteric failed technology.



That's a bit harsh, don't you think?

Seriously, I'm not into solid silver cables, or estoteric power cords, or putting my equipment on stands made from old growth Amish air-dried maple, but I do hear a difference between CD and SACD.

Yes, I do think it's subtle, and, yes, you probably need fairly decent equipment to notice the difference, and, no, I can't say if the difference is inherent in the format or the result of superior mastering.

But I do think that it is there.
 
Oct 17, 2008 at 2:23 PM Post #99 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif
And, if I may be so modest, if I don't hear a difference, then virtually nobody hears a difference...


I can think of a couple of other reasons besides your supposedly modest mastery of all things sonic as to why you can't hear a difference.
 
Oct 19, 2008 at 6:47 AM Post #100 of 128
For anyone who's interested, here's a link to two almost identical versions of the same song, taken from the album released on my site. The only difference is that one version is 24 bit, the other is 16. The 16 bit version was made using dithering and noise shaping settings that, to my ears, bring it closest to the sound of the 24 bit version. Both files are in AIFF format.

http://www.nicknotis.com/Seed Like S... 16+24 bit.zip

To me, the differences are subtle but evident. But this is only when using extremely detailed headphones like the K1000s and the MD5000s. With unbalanced HD600s, I can't make out a difference. They're just not resolving enough.

I'd be thrilled if anyone out there can take the 24 bit file and make a 16 bit version that sounds exactly the same. But my hunch is that it can't be done.

In any case, if you trust me when I say that both files are identical except for the bit depth, then you can compare them with you own ears and decide for yourselves whether or not there's something to be gained from the extra dynamic range.
 
Oct 19, 2008 at 4:30 PM Post #101 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by nnotis /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For anyone who's interested, here's a link to two almost identical versions of the same song,

http://www.nicknotis.com/Seed Like S... 16+24 bit.zip

In any case, if you trust me when I say that both files are identical except for the bit depth, then you can compare them with you own ears and decide for yourselves whether or not there's something to be gained from the extra dynamic range.



Thanks for the samples. I ran them through Cool Edit and they are almost identical. The dynamic range of the 24 bit sample is ~ 47.77db(R) and ~ 47.83db(L) , on the 16 bit sample the dynamic range is ~ 47.68db(R) and 47.83db(L), so the DR on the left channel is the same but the right is very slighly down on bit depth reduction. Comparing the sample values the left and right channels change subtly differently on changing the bit depth :

ldiff rdiff
Min 1.07% 0.57%
Max 0.37% -0.20%


the right channel changes less than the left channel, in any case there is some compression, going from 24 to 16 the min goes up and the max goes down on the left on the right channel the min goes up but so does the max ???

When you examine the intensities at different fequencies there is an average 0.95db difference between the 2 samples (using 256 frequencies) . At lower frequencies the differences are very small (0 to about 0.5db) but when you hit 5.7K - 22K the differences range from 0.4 to 1.6db (average 1.25) .

But none of this is really relevant, the actual dynamic ranges of both samples are comfortably under 50db which is not challenging for CD. So whatever changes happen going from 24 to 16 do not reflect a fundamental weakness in 16 bits wrt your tracks.

I did a blind test and I could not tell them apart but I am 50 so my ears may be a limiting factor ?
 
Nov 22, 2008 at 8:43 PM Post #103 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm sorry. I don't hear an appreciable difference between CD and SACD.

And, if I may be so modest, if I don't hear a difference, then virtually nobody hears a difference...

...except for those with vivid imaginations and some kind of weird, vested fetish interest in esoteric failed technology.



Well I guess that just settles it. Let's just close this thread because there's no more reason to debate this.

What if SACD is like one of those crazy drawings where you have to stare at it for a few minutes before the image becomes apparent. You know, I never could see those images...it made me mad. Amazingly, I was somehow able to refrain from telling the friend next to me who was oo'ing and ah'ing all over the drawing that since I can't see it, "virtually" no one else should be able to either. Lol.
 
Nov 22, 2008 at 8:51 PM Post #104 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by jsplice /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Well I guess that just settles it. Let's just close this thread because there's no more reason to debate this.


Chesky SACD's sound better than Chesky CD's, Analogue Productions SACD's sound better than Analogue Productions CD's, Stockfisch SACD's sound better than Stockfich CD's, MFLS SACD's sound better than MFSL CD's etc etc... so how can you tell there's no difference
confused_face(1).gif


SACD >>>> CD

CDs_suck12.gif
 
Nov 22, 2008 at 9:02 PM Post #105 of 128
Quote:

Originally Posted by audioholik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Chesky SACD's sound better than Chesky CD's, Analogue Productions SACD's sound better than Analogue Productions CD's, Stockfisch SACD's sound better than Stockfich CD's, MFLS SACD's sound better than MFSL CD's etc etc... so how can you tell there's no difference
confused_face(1).gif


SACD >>>> CD

CDs_suck12.gif



Hmmm, could it be that the mastering is different ?

The only serious experiment to test if humans can hear the difference between High Rez and RedBook using 60 Audiophiles as subjects failed to find even one person who could reliably tell the difference between High rez and 16/44.1.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top