[trbl]

From way back on March 8:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsl I would like to know, how the SA-5000 compare to Stax phones.

That's a good question. The descriptions I'd read of the SA-5000's sound suggested that they might have many of the virtues of the Stax Lambdas with the added bonus of not requiring a custom-built high voltage amplifier to perform to their full potential.

My pair are still very new, having arrived yesterday and having burned in only about 16 hours. I'm also currently using them straight out of the headphone jack of an old but decent Philips CD-880 player while I wait for the delivery of the headphone amp I'll use with my regular universal player. So these are early comments that are not the final word by any means.

My Stax system is a 20 year old Lambda Pro with SRM-1 Mk 2 Pro amplifier. I've always been extremely happy with these. They have a very open, clean, non-resonant sound that is detailed without ever being being fatiguing or harsh sounding. They were fantastic headphones 20 years ago, and they still are.

I find that the SA-5000's don't sound the same as the Lamda Pros. They seem to be very slightly less airy sounding. There's more of an in-head perspective. Hiss in classical music recorded at a low levels seems to emanate from each earcup, whereas with the Lambda Pros it sounds more like it's all around you.

As others have noted, small details are quite audible in the SA-5000's. They seem to have this quality to a slightly greater degree than the also very revealing Lambda Pros. Their bass seems to be quite similar to the Lambda Pros, perhaps slightly fuller sounding. The midrange may be a little more nasal sounding.

Overall they seem quite promising. They're not identical to the sound I'm used to from the Stax earspeakers, but they're very good on the interim system I have to use until the headphone amplifier arrives. With a good amplifier they may be comparable to a good set of Stax Lambdas. That's no small achievement.

 

[SptsNaz]

Man, I've never even considered speding half this much on headphones, but these have really seduced me. I remember losing nights of sleep when I spent $200 + on ety's, but now this! Damn you head-fi, this place is worse than a crack addiction

Are they really worth this much money? For $430 you can easily get some Grado SR225's for rock and the HD600's for everything else

 

[devwild]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SptsNaz Are they really worth this much money? For $430 you can easily get some Grado SR225's for rock and the HD600's for everything else

Even without full burn in, I'd say these stand above both (I own the 595s and 225s, have heard several other Senns). To me these actually have a lot of the best features of both without as much of what tends to bug me about either (the sometimes excessive overall impact of the Grados, the laid back, sometimes "veiled" sound of the senns)

But that's coming from someone who has been standing on the middle of the Senn/Grado fence since before I found head-fi to begin with.

Plus the detail, oh the detail, especially the accuracy of the bass surprised me...

 

[BlackJackSkanz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by acs236 I'm having trouble understanding why the holes are bothering you. I take it that your head is pressing REALLY hard up against the fabric? I think the holes are there to allow it to stretch a bit more. But tell us more about how it is bothering you.

Well, having had some more time to wear test them (man, I would like to get past this and be able to enjoy the music), I can say nothing has really solved this problem (short of modifications which I have not done yet) but it has gone from mildly painful to just discomfort. Here are my issues:

1. The holes allow my hair to poke through, creating pressure points resulting in discomfort wear the band presses on my scalp and generating that cheese grater effect. Takes about an hour before this becomes uncomfortable.

2. I have found rotating the placement of the headphones between slightly different angles helps.

3. Cups are not large enough. Doesn't create descomfort but it was odd having the bottom edge of the cups press down on my lobes (does this even when fully extended).

I keep it between 8-9 position which seems to allow for more clamping force to releave the pressure on the scalp (7 is too short).

I am going to try using some kind of fabric to cover the supplied wholey nylon to see if that resolves the problem. If it does than I am going to mod band by replacing the fabric with something without holes.

Also, has anyone mentioned that this headphone puts all other headphone hair to shame and surpasses what pairs of anyone other headphone would do to your stylish locks?

 

[acs236]

Ahh, I see. Your comfort issues make perfect sense now -- I didn't know that your hair was part of the equation.

And large ears too! With regard to finding comfortable headphones, I feel for you.

 

[BlackJackSkanz]

LOL! Well, my ears are not that big but do to my highbrow, there a bet more of a stretch than these headphones are designed. Even at fully extended it leaves a bit of space of the top of my ear which is wear the bottom edge is touching my lobes.

 

[mrsl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trbl I find that the SA-5000's don't sound the same as the Lamda Pros. They seem to be very slightly less airy sounding. There's more of an in-head perspective. Hiss in classical music recorded at a low levels seems to emanate from each earcup, whereas with the Lambda Pros it sounds more like it's all around you.

Thanks for your comments, trbl.

Now I do not feel the need anymore to purchase a pair of SA-5000, since they will be no significant upgrade from my Stax 3030.

And my Stax + external Subwoofer is unbeatable anyway

 

[trbl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsl Now I do not feel the need anymore to purchase a pair of SA-5000, since they will be no significant upgrade from my Stax 3030.

I've now had the chance to listen to the SA5000's with a new Gilmore Lite amplifier and my usual CD player, a Philips 963SA.

I'd agree that for most people the SA5000 is not an "upgrade" from a Stax 3030 or 4040 (or 1980's Lambda Pro) system. They have reasonably similar sonic signatures, different but comparable.

One big advantage of the SA5000 is its lower cost. For about $700 you get a system with many of the strengths of the Stax that will cost at least 1.5 to 2 times as much.

A second advantage is headroom. The original Lambda Pro earspeaker was significantly more sensitive than the current versions, and the SRM-1 Mk 2 driver amplifier had a slightly higher maximum output voltage. The current production Classic and Signature earspeakers produce about 96 dB SPL for 100 V rms at frequencies below 500 Hz before it starts to rise to a high frequency plateau value. The original Lambda Pro produced about 102 dB SPL below 1 kHz before it started it's own rise in response.

This may or may not be a problem depending on your musical tastes. I found that on some favorite classical music, a Lambda Signature system would run out of headroom and the amplifier would clip in a very noticeable and unpleasant manner. The original Lambda Pro system would almost never do this unless the peak levels really were getting pretty loud. With most music this was never an issue, and both old and new Stax systems sounded wonderful. Only on certain music, which I suppose had waveforms with unusually high peak-to-average values, did this clipping occur.

With the SA5000 and Gilmore Lite (and the majority of dynamic headphones), headroom isn't a issue unless a low voltage battery powered amplifier is used with an insensitive headphone. The maximum unclipped output of the headphone and amplifier will far exceed any sane listening level.

I had done some design work on a super electrostatic driver amplifier that could cleanly handle higher voltages than any of the Stax amplifiers (and even a bit above the two most recent Gilmore designs). That amplifier and a Stax SR-404 or Omega II would probably deliver the best sound, but at a great cost in time and effort and money. The SA5000 plus Gilmore Lite or other suitable amplifier is a far more sensible solution that's available to many more people.

Some of the issues I'd initially noted with the SA5000 (a slight nasality, the perception of recording hiss) I no longer hear now that the SA5000 has been burned in and is used with the Gilmore Lite and better CD player. The comment about the bass still holds. It may be a little more full than the Stax, but on some recordings the bass seems a little more prominent on the Stax. Overall they're quite similar.

The SA5000 does seem to have a brighter top end, and sibilance is more pronounced. This may bother some people, and it's my only real source of dissatisfaction with the SONY's. This again is something that is more noticeable with some recordings than with others. The sibilance is very clean and sharp sounding, and not smeared out. It just seems to be pronounced to an unnatural degree. It sounds like it's more the product of a fairly smoothly rising high frequency response than one with lots of peaks.

Overall, I'd say if money is no object, and you either listen to music that doesn't cause the Stax driver amplifier to clip (or you buy or build a custom high voltage amplifier with more headroom), the Stax earspeakers are still the best. Anyone who is happy with their current Stax system is unlikely to find the SA5000 to be a better headphone. If the headroom issue is a problem, or you can't afford a Stax system, the SA5000 is a viable alternative with similar virtues and sound for quite a bit less money.

 

[spike33]

Just got my sa5000 today. First impressions... no mini adapter? hmm. the headband is much smaller than sa1000. I was using setting 1 on 1k, and using 5 on 5k. Build quality is much higher than sa1000, the hair net is tougher, better material. The leather pads are very comfy. The headstand looks and works great.

At first listen, no burn in, it is way more balanced than sa1k. No sharp peak at upper midrange, not too bright, less sibilant, much more bass and fuller sound all around. Wish it came with mini adapter so I could use 120ohm adapter

 

[devwild]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike33 no mini adapter? hmm.

I was wondering when someone was going to mention that

I've been using my Grado adapter when playing with other sources for now.

 

[SoundFreaq]

Remember me? trying to decide between the a900s or the 770s? LOL

Damn you all!

You all just weren't kidding when you say "sorry about your wallet"! The terrific reviews of the sa5000 made me pull the trigger and 'go ahead' and get something I wouldn't regret... down the road 2 months saying 'shoulda bought the 5ks'. I figured I would save money in the long-run by going ahead and getting the expensive ones now

No, I don't have a lot of comparison with other models, but I do have vast experience with quality sound.

Straight out of the box: No burn in... coupled with an Audigy 2 and small amp.

I can mirror what everyone says... gosh, the high end is so extended, it's out of sight. I am a big fan of hyperdetailed treble and these satisfy with superb clarity. Straight out of the box, the treble ALMOST bordered as harsh and perhaps grainy. The bass is very tight and accurate with good quality, though not overly impactful, almost a bit shallow.

The sound as a whole is very detailed and clear. Seems to be a drop in the mid-bass frequencies... however after just a few hours of burn-in, they have alreasy loosened up a bit, specifically the mids and low end... seems a bit more extended. The treble, maintaining it's pure accuracy and clarity has mellowed out a tad bit taking that slightly distracting edge away.

Supreme clarity and resolution coupled with the super-extended high end promises to give many years of pleasurable high-end listening.

more later...

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trbl One big advantage of the SA5000 is its lower cost. For about $700 you get a system with many of the strengths of the Stax that will cost at least 1.5 to 2 times as much.

Not quite true. Audiocubes sells the 3030 system for $779, and the SR-404/SRM-313 combo for $879 (not sure what the 4040 system costs). An SA5k + quality amp will be comparably expensive, if not more so. The main advantage - pricewise - of the SA5k is that the system can be assembled piecemeal, while the SR-404/303 need their proper amplifier in order to function, so you have to lay out the whole sum at once. The other main advantage is the ease of component swapping - for electrostatics, there are far fewer amp choices.

Japanese street prices are even cheaper still. Electrostatics aren't that expensive, and if you're looking at buying a headphone + amp, they're actually quite a bargain. It's their lack of, well, modularity that makes them seem so exorbitantly priced.

Thanks for the SR-404/SA5k comparison, very helpful.

 

[trbl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch Not quite true. Audiocubes sells the 3030 system for $779, and the SR-404/SRM-313 combo for $879 (not sure what the 4040 system costs).

I was trying to make the closest and fairest comparison, for systems purchased from an authorized US dealer, not necessarily the cheapest grey market goods. That means about $1000 for a 3030 system, and $1400 for a 4040 system. That's how I got the 1.5 to 2 times value, using the lowest cost US distributor I knew of.

There are lots of ways to do the math. People who already have a good dynamic headphone amp wouldn't need to buy another to use the SA5000's. It may be worthwhile to buy grey market Stax units and bypass a not so wonderful US distributor and repair center. Buying from AudioCubes will chop about $200 from each price, for a non-US warranty unit (and driver amps that are 100 V AC units that would need to be used with the AudioCubes supplied transformer).

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trbl I was trying to make the closest and fairest comparison, for systems purchased from an authorized US dealer, not necessarily the cheapest grey market goods. That means about $1000 for a 3030 system, and $1400 for a 4040 system. That's how I got the 1.5 to 2 times value, using the lowest cost US distributor I knew of.

That, certainly, is one way to look at it. Another would be that it is US distributors that are unfair, and are charging us more than two and a half times as much as what these products cost in Japan - for no reason whatsoever.

P.S. Sorry for the threadjack, I'm through. Promise

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike33 Just got my sa5000 today. First impressions... no mini adapter? hmm. the headband is much smaller than sa1000. I was using setting 1 on 1k, and using 5 on 5k. Build quality is much higher than sa1000, the hair net is tougher, better material. The leather pads are very comfy. The headstand looks and works great. At first listen, no burn in, it is way more balanced than sa1k. No sharp peak at upper midrange, not too bright, less sibilant, much more bass and fuller sound all around. Wish it came with mini adapter so I could use 120ohm adapter

I tried listening to the SA5000 through the 120 ohm jack of my Corda Prehead today and was not too impressed.Where the 120 ohm jack tends to balance out the DT860,it tends to suck the life out of the SA5000.The 0 ohm jack is the only one to use for these headphones.