Rob watts DAC design talk
Nov 26, 2018 at 4:29 AM Post #451 of 468
My brother got burned by investing in an all McIntosh system back in the mid 70s. The equipment still works perfectly and sounds fine, but he can't adjust the volume without standing up, it won't channel video to his TV set from his blu-ray player, it has no HDMI or internal DAC to decode digital, and it's ten times bigger and hotter than a decent AV amp today. For the price he paid for the McIntosh, he could have bought dozens of AVRs and just thrown them out when they burned out. Plus his AVRs would sound just as good and be technologically up to date. He's stuck with an overpriced, obsolete albatross. I keep telling him to sell it, but he likes the aqua glow.
 
Nov 27, 2018 at 5:56 PM Post #452 of 468
The general consensus of audiophiles often doesn't correspond to the actual facts. For example, the actual measurements of a Hugo 2, indicate that it is indeed an excellent DAC/HP Amp but as for it being "value for money", on performance alone it is no more excellent than a DAC/HP Amp that costs around 10 times less. Essentially then, one would be paying an additional $2,300 or so solely for a more nicely milled aluminium case + the "Chord" name and it's a personal choice whether that alone represents "value for money". That's the problem though, it is not marketed/sold as all that extra cost essentially just being for a nice case, it's also marketed as actually having superior performance, I strongly suspect that most of those who've bought one did so with the belief that they buying superior performance and pretty much all of the reviews/impressions are regarding performance.

G

Yes, I’m beginning to see what you mean, I’ve just been reading the Chord M scaler thread and was shocked to read an M scaler user say this:

‘Then I wanted to see the difference that the mscaler brings to the table, so I tried switching between 1 million taps and passthrough, and I will be truthful and say that I could not hear any difference, and that bothered me as I thought that it should of been obvious, but apparently not.

Now that basically everyone has said that it’s very hard to hear the difference, or they can’t hear a difference, that has reassured me that my setup is correct, and my hugo and mscaler is ok.’


Wow
 
Nov 27, 2018 at 6:05 PM Post #453 of 468
Yes, I’m beginning to see what you mean, I’ve just been reading the Chord M scaler thread and was shocked to read an M scaler user say this: Now that basically everyone has said that it’s very hard to hear the difference, or they can’t hear a difference, that has reassured me that my setup is correct, and my hugo and mscaler is ok.’

 
Nov 27, 2018 at 6:09 PM Post #454 of 468
Yes, I’m beginning to see what you mean, I’ve just been reading the Chord M scaler thread and was shocked to read an M scaler user say this:

‘Then I wanted to see the difference that the mscaler brings to the table, so I tried switching between 1 million taps and passthrough, and I will be truthful and say that I could not hear any difference, and that bothered me as I thought that it should of been obvious, but apparently not.

Now that basically everyone has said that it’s very hard to hear the difference, or they can’t hear a difference, that has reassured me that my setup is correct, and my hugo and mscaler is ok.’


Wow


I find great irony that the member you are referring to recently spent time trolling this thread and was absolutely sure that there was tremendous audible differences in DACS. Not that the M Scaler is a DAC, but...
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 3:20 PM Post #455 of 468
I find great irony that the member you are referring to recently spent time trolling this thread and was absolutely sure that there was tremendous audible differences in DACS. Not that the M Scaler is a DAC, but...

Well, said member is now saying the M scaler does make a difference now - a 180° turnaround from yesterday. I can’t keep up with it all!
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 3:50 PM Post #456 of 468
Well, said member is now saying the M scaler does make a difference now - a 180° turnaround from yesterday. I can’t keep up with it all!


At this point, I’m just enjoying the comedy.

Not only has he done a 180, he’s saying his original findings don’t matter because he simply won’t use the functionality in question. The amount of work going into purchase validation is rather absurd - I’m sure when the M Scaler v2 is released with 100 million taps, we will see a multitude of posts describing how much the current version is leaving on the table. These are the same folks who extolled the virtues and superiority of Chord DACs, which are apparently now in need of another $5000 box to actually be viable.

There appears to be only two possible scenarios. Either the entire experience in that thread is due to expectation bias, or the products being discussed aren’t audibly transparent.
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 5:32 PM Post #457 of 468
I would bet on expectation bias.
 
Dec 19, 2018 at 10:21 PM Post #458 of 468
More like a major distraction. Also a good way to make it more difficult to know what the mode and volume settings are. I guess it’s one way to attempt to create separation from the herd.

Gimmicks and extreme numbers don’t necessarily correlate with actual audible performance improvement. Personally, I find Chord to be one of the leading proponents of “more must be better” without offering actual evidence of that improvement. I’m not stating the products are bad, just that I see no reason to believe that they represent better.

The reason to think they represent better is by listening to them. Do you actually think people want to shell out thousands of their hard-earned dollars just to help some random British designer?
 
Dec 19, 2018 at 10:56 PM Post #459 of 468
The reason to think they represent better is by listening to them. Do you actually think people want to shell out thousands of their hard-earned dollars just to help some random British designer?


I have listened to several including the Dave. They sound like any other properly built DAC. If you think you can pick a Chord out from the herd, try an ABX or other reasonably controlled blind test and see how it goes.

Edit: saw your comments in the Chord threads. I assure you I’m not, broke, a kid, or deaf.
 
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Dec 19, 2018 at 11:22 PM Post #460 of 468
I have listened to several including the Dave. They sound like any other properly built DAC.

If you think you can pick a Chord out from the herd, try an ABX or other reasonably controlled blind test and see how it goes.

Edit: saw your comments in the Chord threads. I assure you I’m not, broke, a kid, or deaf.

Ah, now I understand - it all comes clear: you genuinely think "properly built DACs" all sound alike. Clearly you very, very badly need to get your hearing checked, and soon.
 
Dec 19, 2018 at 11:33 PM Post #461 of 468
Ah, now I understand - it all comes clear: you genuinely think "properly built DACs" all sound alike. Clearly you very, very badly need to get your hearing checked, and soon.


Who saw the “get your ears checked” comment coming... ironically, I had my hearing tested extensively by an audiologist a few months ago and my hearing is very good for my age group, so let’s dispense with the unfounded insults.

In the Sound Science subforum, you’re expected to provide non subjective evidence supporting your claim.

If the differences are as dramatic as you believe, why the reluctance to prove it by doing a blind test? You really have two choices at this point - either perform a test and post the results (foobar has an ABX plugin) or slink back to the product forums and tell everyone how mean, broke, deaf, etc. we are in Sound Science. You’re safe there - forum rules prevent discussion of testing outside of this subforum. Have you ever wondered why that is?

Edit: I see you’ve already slunk back to the product forums and have commenced with the insults. If you choose to buy into marketing propaganda rather than audio science and the understood limits of human hearing, that’s up to you.
 
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Dec 20, 2018 at 2:59 AM Post #462 of 468
Ah, now I understand - it all comes clear: you genuinely think "properly built DACs" all sound alike. Clearly you very, very badly need to get your hearing checked, and soon.

I've never heard one of these particular DACs, but I do controlled tests with every piece of equipment I buy, and every DAC, DAP and player I've ever bought sounds exactly the same. That includes 9 iPods, 3 iPhones, an Oppo HA-1, multiple DVD and bluray players, including a $40 Walmart cheapie, numerous Macs and an Oppo BDP103- a few of dozen components in all.

I'll make you a deal. If you do a line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind test and discern a difference between two DACs, I will get my hearing checked. If you do find a DAC that sounds clearly different, I am VERY interested in hearing about it. I've been looking for one to do a confirmation test and measurements with, and so far everyone who does controlled tests have never heard a difference, and the only people who do hear differences base their opinion on completely uncontrolled subjective impressions.

I'm willing to bet that your opinion is based on subjective impressions, not controlled tests. I would advise you to check your expectation bias before you evaluate audio equipment.
 
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Dec 20, 2018 at 6:56 AM Post #463 of 468
Ah, now I understand - it all comes clear: you genuinely think "properly built DACs" all sound alike. Clearly you very, very badly need to get your hearing checked, and soon.
perceiving a difference is easy. to the point where you don't even need a difference to perceive one. but it's important to properly qualify which perceived differences count and which do not. that in turn will form the basic criteria for your listening test:
- it can feel silly, but when you see 2 different DACs clearly looking different, that has been demonstrated to be more than enough to feel like the sound is different. it might not happen for everybody the same way, and what we were told about both DACs can certainly increase the belief that they are very different, and the expectation bias resulting from that. because that is a possibility and it has been clearly demonstrated to be one so many times with so many people, a listening test requires that the listener doesn't know what he's listening to during the test. if not, we can never be sure that we didn't "hear" with our eyes. and to be plainly clear, those who think they're not concerned by this are wrong.
- DACs very often have audible difference in the output volume level. does that qualify as audible difference? it's a difference in sound and it's audible so I guess yes, but should we purchase a DAC because it was 2 or 3dB louder than another one? doesn't seem like a very good reason to me. so I would suggest to always make sure the levels are very closely matched when we do a listening test between DACs.
- another side effect of the potential difference in output voltage for the DAC, could on occasion be that the voltage exceeds or is far below nominal values for the amplifier's input. most of the time I wouldn't expect a difference, but on occasion that results in distortions more or less noticeable, or if the gain needs to be drastically increased, sometimes it will be the difference between having noticeable background hiss or not. in the context of a given playback system, that could be very important, but when judging DACs on their own for their fidelity, it would be utterly unfair to blame what happens to the amp on the DAC. so once again, proper volume matching between the DACs tested seems like a pretty important step. at least for those who wish to avoid spitting on a DAC because of their own errors when picking the amp or gain settings to pair them with.


now in practice, once you start testing DACs while paying attention to what are really just 2 obvious requirements(avoiding subjective bias to ruin the test, and checking that we output the same volume level), suddenly the number of DACs clearly sounding different drops like a stone. to the point where many people haven't experienced 2 DACs sounding noticeably different to them. it could obviously be that those who don't meet such situations simply lack in experience, hearing skills, or simply have purchasing criteria that will eliminate the weird DACs, massively limiting the opportunity to listen to one. so them not noticing differences doesn't mean DACs with a unique sound don't exist. also if their idea of a properly built DAC is that it will sound like another properly build DAC, then the condition is self fulfilling and they're technically right, but that doesn't mean much for DACs in general ^_^.
but on the other hand, anybody ignorant about gears, himself, or how to conduct a controlled listening test, would naturally be tricked by his own impressions from time to time, and as a result, would become convinced that they often and easily notice differences between DACs(and really between anything and anything else). it's one of those typical situations where being less qualified results in feeling like we're doing better. so for us to trust you're not just fooling yourself, we could really do with some supporting evidence.
 
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Dec 21, 2018 at 12:34 PM Post #464 of 468
I've never heard one of these particular DACs, but I do controlled tests with every piece of equipment I buy, and every DAC, DAP and player I've ever bought sounds exactly the same. That includes 9 iPods, 3 iPhones, an Oppo HA-1, multiple DVD and bluray players, including a $40 Walmart cheapie, numerous Macs and an Oppo BDP103- a few of dozen components in all.

I'll make you a deal. If you do a line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind test and discern a difference between two DACs, I will get my hearing checked. If you do find a DAC that sounds clearly different, I am VERY interested in hearing about it. I've been looking for one to do a confirmation test and measurements with, and so far everyone who does controlled tests have never heard a difference, and the only people who do hear differences base their opinion on completely uncontrolled subjective impressions.

I'm willing to bet that your opinion is based on subjective impressions, not controlled tests. I would advise you to check your expectation bias before you evaluate audio equipment.

The mistake you're making is not understanding that human hearing together with the human brain in and of itself constitutes an extremely sensitive and useful piece of audio measuring gear.

A little context: I've been a music producer and engineer professionally for over 30 years. I have owned several full-blown recording studios and obviously all manner of audio gear, from $3000 single-channel vintage tube compressors to $20 border microphones from Radio Shack. Whether or not I have something to eat in the morning depends on my ability to hear what sounds good and what doesn't.

In the recording audio world, there is ridiculous hype around certain pieces of gear and every manufacturer and dealer wants to convince you that their extremely expensive unit is worth all the money. This has been the world I've lived in for all this time, so few people are more experienced with sellers trying to "hype" things with high prices and fancy tech-talk about this or that than I (and people in this field) are. If I couldn't see through all that nonsense, I'd be broke.

And the way to see through all that is simply by listening. Every different piece of gear sounds different. Obviously. They have to: they're made of different stuff. To argue the contrary is either to say A+1=A, or to admit to not being able to hear the difference. Which is fine. There are some occasions where I can't hear the difference. But differences there are.

The issue is does the gear provide you a sound you can use. I can use a $20 Radio Shack border microphone to get a certain useful sound, and a $6000 Manley tube microphone to get another.

The exact same thing applies to different DACs. Different one simply sound different, as they must by definition. Sometimes I can't hear much of a difference, and I'm well aware of volume-matching so as not to be faked out by Fletcher-Munson issues, for example.

But I'm well aware of what an acoustic guitar sounds like in acoustic space. And I can tell with 100% certainty that a recording of an acoustic guitar sounds more like a real acoustic guitar coming out of a Hugo2 (or a Benchmark or an Apogee DA16x) than it does coming out of an iPod.

If you don't want to spend $5000 for something which to your hearing barely changes the sound, join the extremely long list of people who agree. But to deny that to other people it sounds different enough to be worth the cost simply ignorant arrogance: you don't know everything. And, if there weren't people like that, you wouldn't have all the music you love from the history of recorded music.

Different stuff sounds different. This shouldn't be complicated.
 
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Dec 21, 2018 at 1:01 PM Post #465 of 468
The mistake you're making is not understanding that human hearing together with the human brain in and of itself constitutes an extremely sensitive and useful piece of audio measuring gear.

A little context: I've been a music producer and engineer professionally for over 30 years. I have owned several full-blown recording studios and obviously all manner of audio gear, from $3000 single-channel vintage tube compressors to $20 border microphones from Radio Shack. Whether or not I have something to eat in the morning depends on my ability to hear what sounds good and what doesn't.

In the recording audio world, there is ridiculous hype around certain pieces of gear and every manufacturer and dealer wants to convince you that their extremely expensive unit is worth all the money. This has been the world I've lived in for all this time, so few people are more experienced with sellers trying to "hype" things with high prices and fancy tech-talk about this or that than I (and people in this field) are. If I couldn't see through all that nonsense, I'd be broke.

And the way to see through all that is simply by listening. Every different piece of gear sounds different. Obviously. They have to: they're made of different stuff. To argue the contrary is either to say A+1=A, or to admit to not being able to hear the difference. Which is fine. There are some occasions where I can't hear the difference. But differences there are.

The issue is does the gear provide you a sound you can use. I can use a $20 Radio Shack border microphone to get a certain useful sound, and a $6000 Manley tube microphone to get another.

The exact same thing applies to different DACs. Different one simply sound different, as they must by definition. Sometimes I can't hear much of a difference, and I'm well aware of volume-matching so as not to be faked out by Fletcher-Munson issues, for example.

But I'm well aware of what an acoustic guitar sounds like in acoustic space. And I can tell with 100% certainty that a recording of an acoustic guitar sounds more like a real acoustic guitar coming out of a Hugo2 (or a Benchmark or an Apogee DA16x) than it does coming out of an iPod.

If you don't want to spend $5000 for something which to your hearing barely changes the sound, join the extremely long list of people who agree. But to deny that to other people it sounds different enough to be worth the cost simply ignorant arrogance: you don't know everything. And, if there weren't people like that, you wouldn't have all the music you love from the history of recorded music.

Different stuff sounds different. This shouldn't be complicated.

Good to hear your perspective, given your experience.

IMO, given the variability of each person's auditory perception over time, the variability in auditory perception between different people, the fuzziness and fallibility of auditory memory, and powerful proven effects of expectation bias, the question is how much of the difference you perceive is really due to the gear. Have you done any unsighted and controlled comparisons of the Hugo 2 versus other DACs?

When I compared my Hugo 2 and Mojo and Dragonfly Red using sighted and uncontrolled comparisons, I was pretty dang sure that the Hugo 2 sounds better than the Mojo, and the Mojo better than the DF Red. And the differences I perceived were significant and consistent over time, with a variety of headphones and tracks. Those differences were also consistent with what other people report. But when I did a sighted comparison using matching of volume and music excepts, with quick switching, I could no longer consistently perceive any differences at all (and interestingly, when I increased the switching time to several seconds or didn't match the music excerpts, the differences seemed to try to reappear). I doubt the differences would reappear if I did the same comparison unsighted, but I may give that a try over the holidays, at least to cross that possibility off the list.
 
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