Rob watts DAC design talk
Nov 20, 2018 at 12:32 AM Post #331 of 468
No problem. I just haven't heard anything that is anything other than audibly transparent. I'm interested in hearing something that sounds *better* than audibly transparent. I'm happy to give you my contact info. I am a reputable person and most of the regulars here in this forum know who I am. I will pay for postage to ship the Chord to me and back and it will only take me a week to do my tests. I'm willing to send you my HA-1 in return, but if you aren't interested in that, that is fine.
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 12:32 AM Post #332 of 468
I've heard the pm1 with ha1 and mojo its clear which i preferred. Why is that so loathed here?
I would say because no evidence has been provided.
You can subjectively state you prefer X over Y, but when you make a statement that X is clearly better than Y, and if don’t agree, you don’t know what high fidelity is, you better present solid evidence to back your claim.
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 12:36 AM Post #333 of 468
I've heard the pm1 with ha1 and mojo its clear which i preferred. Why is that so loathed here? My last post here.


You’re completely misinterpreting why the questions are being asked. The same questions would have been raised regardless of which product you made unsupported claims for. This has nothing to do with the mojo specifically or Chord as a company, but you’re so determined to defend your purchase, you’re taking the questions as an attack against you and Chord. It isn’t.
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 12:39 AM Post #334 of 468
I'm not even arguing his impression. I'm just giving him an opportunity to have it independently verified. Other people here who have really good measurement tools can feel free to offer their help too if they are interested in testing this. Measurements aren't my thing. I think it would be great if all of us at Sound Science could work together to conduct organized and controlled tests. I'm happy to volunteer to do my part.
 
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Nov 20, 2018 at 1:21 AM Post #335 of 468
The purpose of controlled testing isn't to convince other people. It's to make sure you aren't being affected by bias or perceptual error. You want to know the truth as much as anyone else, so you apply some simple controls to make sure you are hearing what you think you hear. All of those charts you posted should sound 100% identical to the human ear. Just look at the frequency ranges that the deviations occur and the amount of deviation. It's pretty obvious. No human can hear much beyond 20kHz, and a half dB dip below 50Hz is likewise inaudible. The best way to get a handle on where the thresholds of human hearing lay is to do controlled testing for yourself. Looking at sound as abstract numbers on a page or theoretical concepts is very deceiving. We can measure a lot more than we can actually hear.

Bozzunter, he has promised me that he intends to do a controlled test someday. He just hasn't gotten around to it.

A half db dip below 50Hz might actually be audible, the human ear can certainly hear below 50hz. (half a db is insignificant, though.) The real question here is why would a DAC manufacturer mess with the tuning/frequency response of a DAC? They SHOULD be transparent and flat, ideally... the chart from the Samsung he posted is basically flat.

It seems like in general there is a lack of good objective measurement and testing surrounding d/a convertors. I too am convinced that for the most part they are audibly transparent and the technology has long since reached a point where they shouldn't be a concern.. but one has to wonder how many manufacturers are doing something "extra" in their chain that will color the sound, such as bumping or dipping certain frequencies.

If manufacturers want to keep people thinking that the DAC is relevant to sound quality, messing with the DAC on purpose seems like it would be in their interests...
 
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Nov 20, 2018 at 2:01 AM Post #336 of 468
Every DAC and DAP I've ever owned has been transparent far beyond my ability to even hear it. I have no idea why someone would want to manufacture a colored DAC, but people keep swearing that they exist. I'd like to find one of these rare birds in the wild and figure out exactly what kind of coloration they have going on.

A half dB difference can be heard with tones, but it's not very likely that it's going to be heard when you play back music. And the human ear will certainly grow accustomed and correct for slight deviations like that. I'm looking for the clear differences I've been told exist.
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 7:33 AM Post #337 of 468
Does this help?
You certainly are an audio politician. You basically admitted it to @Phronesis a little while back. You often don't respond directly to questions or comments, rather you use them as a springboard to get on your soapbox and provide your talking points.

I was asking for, and hoping to get, very specific details about your last comparison test, not a general answer about all of your tests. The reason is that the set of all "blind listening tests" is not a homogenous set, with all the details being basically the same. Some blind listening tests are very easy to perform, and with a paragraph or two instruction could be done well by just about anyone. Some are difficult to perform and require special hardware and/or software, and quite a bit of know-how. Many are not too hard, if you know what you're doing.

The problem I have with the long list of comparisons you say you've performed is the risk of expectation bias or confirmation bias.

We ask people to do blind tests when they tell us they hear a difference between A and B in order to prevent such a bias. Even if we believe them to be honest and sincere, we know that the mere knowledge of what they're hearing can influence their perception, subconsciously! Asking for blind tests is not an accusation of lying or incompetence.

But such biases are not one-way. Just as hearing a difference when there is none can occur, so can not hearing a difference when there is one.

I know, I know... you always give some form of your standard disclaimer; here it's "I'm not looking for differences at the bleeding edge of audibility", and that's fine. You are free to do listening tests however you like, but your preaching that others should do them to high standards, if you aren't, is disingenuous.

So let's see what you said:
1- I just have a consumer SPL meter for my speaker system. A friend of mine is an audio engineer and he brings over equipment when I need it (tone sweep generator, volt meter, etc.) or I go over to his shop and lug whatever I want to test. I let him handle all the technical stuff. We've done a bunch of test together...
2- CD vs SACD,
3- compressed audio vs lossless,
4- different DVD and blu-ray players, ... {snip}
5- ...For quick tests, like when I'm replacing one iPhone with another or to double check if I suspect something has changed, I will level match with tones by ear and do a sighted test, but that isn't when I'm doing careful comparisons. ...{snip}
6- Level matching really isn't that hard. In fact, it goes so quick, I don't pay much attention to it.
7- I'm not looking for differences at the bleeding edge of audibility. I'm looking for clear differences in the range of 1-2dB or more, so it isn't a big deal. ...{snip}
8- ...testing takes just a couple of minutes. We switch for each other, but 90% of the time, neither of us can hear any difference from the start, so it doesn't take long at all.
1- OK, so some tests require special equipment and expertise that you lack. There's nothing wrong with that, and I think it's great you have such a friend. But then you shouldn't hand-wave and tell others to "just do a blind listening test and provide some evidence", without warning them of what they'll need. It is particularly important to warn them, if you don't even know what to tell them to do!

2- How did you synchronize? How did you level-match? How did you deal with different masterings? Keep in mind that in other threads you have said this is a problem (without offering a solution).

3- This is the easiest (not the quickest, as you mentioned). Did you use foobar with the ABX plugin or Mac software (which)? You mentioned a lot of Macs... do you also have a PC? ...or your friend? Do you know if Parallels would work?

4- see #2

5- No problem. When quick and dirty is called for, it is very appropriate. After all, it is quicker, but also dirtier... ,but don't jump on others for doing the same.

6- Sometimes it really easy (like you say), but sometimes not. Your flippant answer calls into question your familiarity with it.

7- Ah yes, your disclaimer that makes so many of your posts like Jello. If anyone picks up one of your answers to look at it, you throw this out there, or something similar, and slip right out of their fingers. It's a nice technique.

8- This is the biggest reason I suspect confirmation/expectation bias. You don't expect a difference, so your effort suffers. If you really could hear a difference, do you take the time to really try? Your carefree level-matching and looking for differences more than 1-2db could mean you do hear a difference, but it doesn't meet you standard of being strong enough, so you dismiss it as "both are audibly transparent".
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 7:33 AM Post #338 of 468
[1] Oh and science is impartial and based on proofs not a bunch of people getting together having already pre-formed all pre-conclusions and then proceeding to announce them loud and clear for all to hear.
[2] The ultimate test is for you to just go and listen to a chord mojo at 400 pounds.

1. Not sure I understand what you're saying. If "science is impartial and based on proofs not a bunch of people getting together ...", are you saying that in fact "science is based on no proof and one person getting together ..."?

2. You stated that "science is impartial and based on proofs" and as going and listening only provides a listening impression but no "proofs", how is the ultimate test "to go and listen"?The ultimate test must therefore surely be one that actually provides "proofs". As this is the Sound Science forum and as sound can be easily measured (otherwise we couldn't record it) then the proofs lie in the measurements of the output of the Chord Mojo, so HERE YOU GO, "proofs"!

The claim made by Chord's designer was that the brain (not the ear) could resolve audible cues down to -300dB.
[1] These were then seen to have a direct affect upon the accuracy of timing and other musical qualities which became more discernible and which can be heard.
[2] Of interest to point out is how the above named factors and results were a complete surprise to him and continue not to be fully understood.
[3] These results are being noted all over the world in audiophile circles.
[4] This is a new 'science' ie that of high end dacs ... It's still early days.
[5] There seems to be a direct link between the brain's auditory processing and the ability to resolve transients to such a degree that the reproduction of music and whether this is musical or not ultimately defines our enjoyment of such music.

1. Technology is currently capable of reproducing sound down to about -120dB. -300dB is therefore roughly one billion times lower than what is currently possible to reproduce and indeed, it's not possible even in theory to reproduce sound below about -132dB or so, without breaking the laws of physics. If the signal/sound cannot possibly be reproduced, how is it possible to discern or hear something which isn't there? Clearly, your assertion must be false.
2. No kidding! If Rob Watts achieved results which break the laws of physics by a hundred million times or so, it wouldn't be a "complete surprise", it would be an earth shaking discovery that would change the world of science and would have earned Rob Watts a Nobel Prize!
3. The world of science hasn't changed, Rob Watts was not awarded a Nobel Prize and all over the world scientists and audio engineers are laughing at the ridiculousness of Rob Watts' claims, what does that tell you about "audiophile circles"?
4. I'm afraid that is NOT true. The science of capturing and reproducing sound with perfect fidelity started just under a century ago (with Harry Nyquist and others), so it's not new at all and it's certainly not "early days".
5. Do you have any evidence to suggest a direct link between the brain's auditory processing and the ability to resolve transients which don't and can't exist?

ALL of this has ALREADY been stated much earlier in this thread!

G
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 8:32 AM Post #341 of 468
@musickid believes what he believes ... see post #290. You haven't given him any good reason to change his mind, and given the title of this thread, it's not inappropriate that he posted what he did in this thread.
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 8:37 AM Post #342 of 468
But night and day beliefs even I find that strange
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 8:41 AM Post #343 of 468
@musickid believes what he believes ... see post #290.
[1] You haven't given him any good reason to change his mind, and
[2] given the title of this thread, it's not inappropriate that he posted what he did in this thread.

1. It's not my job or responsibility to change his mind, his mind is his to change (or not). All I'm doing is refuting his assertions by pointing out the logical contradictions and stating the actual facts/science, it's entirely up to him what he does with that information.

2. It would be entirely appropriate, if what he posted hadn't already been posted (and refuted) in this thread.

G
 
Nov 20, 2018 at 8:41 AM Post #344 of 468
How so? How do we record digital audio without a quantisation process?

G
Umm... Took me a minute to understand how your question related to my comment. So recording digital audio is one type of recording, but it's not the only kind. Quantization is one type of measurement, but not the only kind.

To answer your question, recording digital audio does require some form of quantization.

But being able to record a signal does not imply that every form of measurement is known.

I must add that I know many people worry about the "missing measurement", and since we don't know how to measure everything, we might be missing the critical one. I am not trying to defend this position. Rather, I am saying that the answer you often give, akin to "if we can record it, we can measure everything" is not true. Measuring something requires you both know what you are trying to measure and the technique to do so. That you can record it bestows neither of those.

Cheers, SAM
 
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Nov 20, 2018 at 8:44 AM Post #345 of 468
But night and day beliefs even I find that strange

I'm not saying that I agree with the night and day differences, just that it was ok for him to post what he did in this thread.

Also, I don't see how small differences in frequency response could even potentially account for perception of differences like bigger stage, more precise imaging, better instrument separation, more articulate bass, much more detail, etc. There would either need to be something else besides frequency response which is quite different in the signal, or perhaps more likely, the listener is listening with an expectation of hearing such differences, and that expectation changes the nature of the listener's attention. It relates to music rather than sound, but I always like to cite this paper as a good example of the effects of expectation:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-24528-3
 

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