[moosemp]

Model Envy?​

Yes. Initially very promising

 

[mammal]

Ive also running the Bartok and AIC combo. Is it safe to stack the AIC ontop of the Bartok? By safe I mean will it leave prints or damage?

I think it is safe, I never had any issues.

 

[TheAttorney]

An update on my mini-shootout a couple of days ago. Round 1:

In the absence of an available AIC-10, my objective was to see if any TOTL headphones, coupled with some <£3k compact amps, could give me a WOW factor compared to my DAVE > HEKse.

The short answer was no. Of course, a 3 hour session in an unfamiliar environment is never going to show all the subtleties of each component. That requires longer term listening at home. But it wasn't my objective to find what's best - all I needed to know was if there was a combination that gave enough WOW factor for further investigation.

To avoid overtaxing my poor little brain, I didn't include estats or ribbons in this round. And I didn't even bother listening to the Burson GT amp because I could hear its fan noise from over a metre away and I knew that would forever irritate me.

I was a bit disappointed that the Ferrum Oor didn't show enough advantage of Susvara over my modded HEKse. The Susvara was better, mostly tonally, but not by that much. The Oor was fine if you like a darker sound.

For me, the best Susvara sound in this group was when driven by the dealer's suggestion: McIntosh 200something, a small valve amp, importantly best through its dual balanced output. Finally, I got a glimpse of the Susvara pulling away from my HEK, but not by enough to tempt me. And this "Little Mac's" small volume control was very unpleasant to use.

In this company, the SPL Phonitor X did surprisingly well, and this black version was the best looking with its VU meters and lots of buttons to press. However, for DAVE Cross-Feed fans, the SPL's CF was disappointing. Despite having 24 different combinations, none of them gave the sort of improvements to the soundstage and imaging that DAVE's 3 settings gave.

Back to the Riviera AIC-10

As result of Round 1, the probability of me getting the Riviera has increased from Long Shot to Quite Possibly. I expect it to be available for Round 2 listening in 2/3 weeks. But if this + Susvara does indeed give me that WOW factor, for half the price would I get a similar WOW from a Stax 9000 + Carbon, or Ra1 + new valve amp?

And how could I lose my DAVE and still retain a good CF (and Phase switch which I also find useful)? And if I keep my DAVE, I'll then be tempted to upgrade it with ARC6 DC4, which is another big, heavy, expensive box. To continue Simorag's personas, never have Captain Sensible, Captain Extravagant, Captain Downsizer and Captain Perfectionist been yelling so loudly in my ear all at the same time!

The most obvious rival to the AIC-10 I think is HFM's own EF1000, which I would personally never consider because it's way too big, too heavy and runs too hot (and 6 input tubes is too many for Captain Fusspot). But it would have been an interesting comparison for SQ. So I asked the dealer why he didn't stock it. Answer was "reliability", which confirmed my pre-existing suspicions and I didn't delve any further. Still, would have been a fascinating SQ comparison.

 

[John Massaria]

So these just arrived for me. These are clearly two different versions of the double getter support, right?

I would think they both look double but one is thicker- I am confounded as they came the dealer in Italy like that as a matched pair- but still sound magnificent together no?

 

[Miller]

The most obvious rival to the AIC-10 I think is HFM's own EF1000, which I would personally never consider because it's way too big, too heavy and runs too hot (and 6 input tubes is too many for Captain Fusspot). But it would have been an interesting comparison for SQ. So I asked the dealer why he didn't stock it. Answer was "reliability", which confirmed my pre-existing suspicions and I didn't delve any further. Still, would have been a fascinating SQ comparison.

I considered the EF1000 as well, I could have lived with the size and two boxes easily. Six tubes for sure is not for the faint-hearted. I had a conversation with a reseller close to their distributor and was told that the heat has caused quite some trouble and lead to stop selling them. This was enough information for me to decide towards the AIC-10, which will probably stay for very long since the itch of upgrading has completely shifted towards hunting down NOS tubes .

 

[eskamobob1]

How did the GSX MK2 perform with the Susvara?

Imo not well. It's quite sharp and while it has decent control I found it unpleasant and not enough of a step uo technicaly over a number of other similarly priced options to be worthwhile.

Thanks. I am heavily invested in various Stax and have a Donald North inbound for my Utopias. Trying to decide if I want to try the Susvaras - however that will entail getting an appropriate amp.

I mean, sus is fantastic as hell, but tbh I think getting them to an appropriate level is similar cost of amping totl estats so be prepared for that.

Care to proffer a Utopia vs. Susvara comparison? (obviously properly amping the Sus)

While I do think sweeping comparisons can be made, tbh, both headphones are such camelians being so massively affected by source and amp it can be pretty hard. Overall Utopia is punchier and better at grit with a smaller but deeper stage while susvara is honestly just a technical step up from utopia IMO with a better balanced stage (similar width and depth), better timbre, faster driver, but a bit more polite overall.

In the absence of an available AIC-10, my objective was to see if any TOTL headphones, coupled with some <£3k compact amps, could give me a WOW factor compared to my DAVE > HEKse.

Imo there are some options here but not a ton. To be frank, I don't think sus is super worth it in this price range (ferum, ahb2, v550, and volot are solid options for it bit I prefer other combos). Some fantastic setups are utopia or soli P on some great tubes (even just forge is mind blowing), D8000 Pro on masskobo/something else that excels at visceral texture, LCD-R on WA22/a number of other amps that will run it, or hd800S on a current drive amp (bakoon HPA-21 which is OOP or releaf are the only options realy as everything else is voltage drive even if current based amplification). Just tbh, on most all setups I tend to prefer an og HE-6 4-screw (haven't heard 6) over sus which opens up some more budget for the amp (if you can find the can at least)

To avoid overtaxing my poor little brain, I didn't include estats or ribbons in this round.

You should seriously give them a shout as imo the raal and several estats can make great value systems in terms of completenes

I was a bit disappointed that the Ferum Oor didn't show enough advantage of Susvara over my modded HEKse. The Susvara was better, mostly tonally, but not by that much.THe Oor was fine if you like a darker sound.

Sus and hek are fairly different. Tbh if you haven't heard sus before I would give it a fair amount of time. See if you can borrow it from the dealer alongside the oor or similar to get yourself familiar with it. It's not an immediate wow can but a slow burn. That said, tbh, I am not the biggest fan of sus overall. I just don't think you should expect to properly understand it right away like one can with stuff like soli P or d8kp.

For me, the best Susvara sound in this group was when driven by the dealer's suggestion: Mackintosh 200something, a small valve amp, importantly best through its dual balanced output. Finally, I got a glimpse of the Susvara pulling away from my HEK, but not by enough to tempt me. And this "Little Mac's" crappy little volume control was very unpleasant to use.

Yes, so I am unabashedly a tube guy but I think sus needs some help here even more so. Mt main complaint with susvara is a lack of livliness that is super hard to tease out of it. Tubes and/or lusher solid states (OG LAu/13R/23R) help here a lot. That said, the only amps that have truly gotten that livliness and tactility for me have all been several x your 3k budget.

As result of Round 1, the probability of me getting the Riviera has increased from Long Shot to Quite Possibly. I expect it to be available for Round 2 listening in 2/3 weeks. But if this + Susvara does indeed give me that WOW factor, for half the price would I get a similar WOW from a Stax 9000 + Carbon, or Ra1 + new valve amp?

Imo, yes x9k and/or sr1a can be viable competitors to sus+aic. That said they are all fairly different. Another option if we are talking a nearly 20k rrp budget is shang sr + any number of fantastic estat amps. I haven't heard sr yet but depending on what you are after it may be a better option for you than sus + aic. If you want more info on it let me know and I'll shoot you a couple fairly active threads on it with lots of comparisons

And how could I lose my DAVE and still retain a good CF (and Phase switch which I also find useful)? And if I keep my DAVE, I'll then be tempted to upgrade it with ARC6 DC4, which is another big, heavy, expensive box. To continue Simorag's personas, never have Captain Sensible, Captain Extravagant, Captain Downsizer and Captain Perfectionist been yelling so loudly in my ear all at the same time!

There are several dac options with good crossfeed such as weiss, berkely, and iirc even msb. That said, if you specificaly like the chord sound, you won't find it elsewhere.

The most obvious rival to the AIC-10 I think is HFM's own EF1000, which I would personally never consider because it's way too big, too heavy and runs too hot (and 6 input tubes is too many for Captain Fusspot). But it would have been an interesting comparison for SQ. So I asked the dealer why he didn't stock it. Answer was "reliability", which confirmed my pre-existing suspicions and I didn't delve any further. Still, would have been a fascinating SQ comparison.

Lots of other options too. Traformatic primavera, viva egoistia, aries cerat genius, wa33, angstron Stella mk3, and oji special bdi-44 just to name a few off the top of my head. There are also some cool solidtate options like the masskobo 406 too

 

[pgkrish]

That said, the only amps that have truly gotten that livliness and tactility for me have all been several x your 3k budget.

I am not the OP but curious what amp did you think brought the best out of the Susvara. Also how do you like the HE6 with AIC10/LAu versus the Susvara?

 

[eskamobob1]

I am not the OP but curious what amp did you think brought the best out of the Susvara.

Spoiler: So a bunch of caveats to get out of the way here.

1. My best dac on hand is the spring 3 currently and its pretty clearly gimping a number of my amps. My other dac is the yggy a2 and while a worse dac overall than spring 3 it can have better synergy with certain things (but once again also clearly gimps the capabilities of several of my amps)
2. While I have heard better dacs (I have dozens of hours on dave and weiss 502) I dont have a ton of experience in the kind of dacs needed to make these amps really sing if we are looking at things holistically (gaining that experience and eventually buying a new dac is my current goal)
3. I have heard HE-6 on far less amps than I have sus and other gear like LCD-R/D8000 pro/Utopia/etc since its just in with me on loan
4. I've only heard AIC with stock tubes

All that out of the way, here are the only 3 systems that have ever made me feel sus was worth while:

Spoiler: Any DAC I've tried -> AIC-10 (stock tube)

Quite chuffed with this setup tbh. My main complaint with Sus since I have owned it is that it lacks this energy/grittiness to certain textures that I find pivotal to certain instruments like horns and wood winds sounding real (headphones that do this trait exceptionally well are SR1A, LCD-R, and D8000 pro). AIC, on stock tubes, and without much burn in gives sus this trait and its the only amp I've ever heard do so (though wa33 got real close so maybe it would with upgraded tubes/elite modifications)​

Spoiler: Weiss 502 -> WA33 (base/JPS wiring/stock tubes)

This is flat out the most "real" setup I've ever heard. That said, I definitively would not buy it. Vocals sounded utterly believable, stage was laser focused, placement was amazing, timbre was the best I've heard for the most things (it wasn't quite there with clarinet and trumpet but that was basically it), and detail was ever-present and easy to listen to without being shoved in your face. That said, I just didn't enjoy the combo in the slightest. My socks were blown off by the technicality but I never once tapped by foot listening to it and that's entirely due to what I personally like. I personally like some sweetness in the mids and a bit of enhanced contrast. The combo being the closest thing I have ever heard to "neutral" over all (I think the 502 wiped out the sweetness of the wa33 tbh) didn't have these and as such just didn't do it for me. I am excited to try the Wiess with the AIC and maybe one day a wa33 with something a bit sweeter/lusher like the spring 3. Maybe one of those will do it for me but I haven't heard those combos yet so I cant be certain.​

Spoiler: Spring 3 KTE w/ pre -> AHB2

I suspect ferrum stack would work as an ahb2 substitute but I haven't tried the combo myself yet

This is honestly just a perfect example of fantastic synergy. I have a lot of complaints with the spring 3, several with the ahb2, and quite a few with sus as well, but this combo does an excellent job at masking each's faults to make a wonderful combination. I do have some small complaints with the system as a whole. For example I would appreciate a bit more leading edge incisiveness, vocals are a hair etchy, and it still doesn't give sus the tactility/liveliness to the texture that its missing to have truly fantastic timbre IMO (its fantastic in timbre of some instruments but certain things like horns and wood winds are missing a bit of grit/aggression that they need to truly sound real IMO). All of this said, I could 10,000% be exceptionally happy with this combo (or maybe get the non-pre spring and get a tube pre)​

Also how do you like the HE6 with AIC10/LAu versus the Susvara?

I unfortunately havent heard the HE-6 on either of those amps yet (well, i did hear it on OG LAu but it was with a trash dac and not for very long). I hope to remedy this either this weekend or next but it will depend on what time allows. I can at least comment on HE6 vs sus on OG Cavalli Liquid crimson (using a 70s philip harleen tube) though. What I realy love about HE6 4-screw (with pele pads) is that it gives sus presentation but trades just a hair of detail and timbre to get back that trait I described above that I feel sus is missing. TBH with the LC on both spring 3 and yggy made this detail loss not big enough to worry too much about and the extra slam and energy in the texture masked the slightly slower speed of the driver even in metal/edm. This continues to the 13R but I need more time to make a propper break down comparison. I suspect that this will hold true on the OG LAu as well but the AIC is a bit of a wild card as im not sure if it will increase the contrast of HE6 and ill still like it or if I will all of a sudden care about the technical loss when I dont find sus lacking the grit I want. It will probably be a few weeks but ill update the thread once I get some more ear time on each combo

 

[pgkrish]

Thanks for that elaborate response. I am not really sure if my ears can discern characteristics (like timbre of instruments) to the extent you expect out of the Susvaras. But I think I can gauge vocal realism a bit better. I am also fond of the slight sweetness in the mids. I am running the Susvaras out of the EC Studio T. That's not a common pairing and I have been looking to compare with a chain that is known to have good synergy so that I know if I am driving the Sus to the best of its abilities. Your AHB2 impressions give me some hope that I can try something that won't break the bank (again).

 

[eskamobob1]

Thanks for that elaborate response. I am not really sure if my ears can discern characteristics (like timbre of instruments) to the extent you expect out of the Susvaras. But I think I can gauge vocal realism a bit better. I am also fond of the slight sweetness in the mids. I am running the Susvaras out of the EC Studio T. That's not a common pairing and I have been looking to compare with a chain that is known to have good synergy so that I know if I am driving the Sus to the best of its abilities. Your AHB2 impressions give me some hope that I can try something that won't break the bank (again).

Just fwiw, I would be a bit careful with the ahb2. The spring 3 is quote heavy handed in its coloration and plays super well with it but I wouldn't expect the ahb2 to play well across the board. I think something like a Ferrum stack would be a better move for similar money in terms of working with more dacs.

And just fwiw, if you ever decide to bring the studio T to socal Ib be more tha happy to trade demos of whatever I've got to hear that one

 

[pgkrish]

And just fwiw, if you ever decide to bring the studio T to socal Ib be more tha happy to trade demos of whatever I've got to hear that one

Haha seems like I long shot but yeah sure. And if you are around the Houston area sometime, you are welcome to come try it out. Hopefully you'll be able to find some T owners around considering EC was based in SoCal.

Just fwiw, I would be a bit careful with the ahb2. The spring 3 is quote heavy handed in its coloration and plays super well with it but I wouldn't expect the ahb2 to play well across the board. I think something like a Ferrum stack would be a better move for similar money in terms of working with more dacs.

I'll keep that in mind. But the advantage of the AHB2 is that I was hoping to use it for the SR1A as well since that pairing also seems to be popular.

 

[MayUseAny]

What power conditioners do you recomend for Riviera + Dave combos? I am looking at PS Audio but not sure if it is worth it. Any tips?

 

[eskamobob1]

What power conditioners do you recomend for Riviera + Dave combos? I am looking at PS Audio but not sure if it is worth it. Any tips?

Honestly, if we are going as far as Dave and and aic, may as well just get a p20 and not have to second guess if you are using something that's "not good enough" imo

 

[simorag]

What power conditioners do you recomend for Riviera + Dave combos? I am looking at PS Audio but not sure if it is worth it. Any tips?

I am using an Audioquest Niagara 5000 and I am happy with it. Before I had an IsoTek Aquarius, and tried a PS Audio P10 and a Gigawatt PC-3. I may seem odd to hear, but each one of these had its own 'signature'. I like the Niagara 5000 because it has a smooth, supple character (whereas IsoTek and Gigawatt were more detailed and etched sounding), and because it seems to provide some grandeur to the staging that I enjoy, especially with classical.

I heard some slight trade-off in terms of speed of attack and sheer macrodynamics initially, now I am not noticing it anymore especially since I have switched to the G73-R as my daily driver.

 

[MayUseAny]

I am using an Audioquest Niagara 5000 and I am happy with it. Before I had an IsoTek Aquarius, and tried a PS Audio P10 and a Gigawatt PC-3. I may seem odd to hear, but each one of these had its own 'signature'. I like the Niagara 5000 because it has a smooth, supple character (whereas IsoTek and Gigawatt were more detailed and etched sounding), and because it seems to provide some grandeur to the staging that I enjoy, especially with classical.

I heard some slight trade-off in terms of speed of attack and sheer macrodynamics initially, now I am not noticing it anymore especially since I have switched to the G73-R as my daily driver.

Wow, I don’t like hearing trade off on something that is supposed to make things better!

How much do you say its worth the money, compared to better powe cables etc?

Or dedicated power line?