[Dillan]

But your headphones listed in your sig retail for $4,000

I respect my LCD4's the most and are technically superior to everything I've owned and most things I've heard.. But I get in moods where I like my SR80e more and pretty much always enjoy the EL-8 open back more.

 

[cel4145]

This has been hashed out a bit already, but I'll say:
a) I am not making a positive claim
b) The negative (null) claim I am making is supported by what we actually know about sibilance and the FR of these DACs

I harp on this particular claim+technology combo because I feel it is a great example of how the average price that people are paying for quality audio could increase. It's not so hard for me to envision this scenario:
.Someone buys some cans that are a bit bright in the upper treble
.They notice sibilance more
.They come into the forum looking for solutions
.Someone says "buy new cans"
.Someone else says "buy a multibit DAC" which can now be had at a "reasonable price."
.The person decides that since their built-in DAC is the "weak link", they will try the DAC solution

And there we go, all other things held constant, this person is paying more for what is very probably not an actual solution to his problem. Now perhaps he can convince himself that he hears fewer Ss and Shs (god help them if they like Russian opera), but then we're really getting into what it means to "hear" something.

You forgot the next step. It's viral. Once a DAC synergy expert determines that the multibit sounds better than a few other DACs he's tried with headphone X, he shares it in the owners/impressions thread for X, and off we go. Multibit DAC synergy pandemic!

 

[pctazhp]

   
This has been hashed out a bit already, but I'll say:
a) I am not making a positive claim
b) The negative (null) claim I am making is supported by what we actually know about sibilance and the FR of these DACs
 
I harp on this particular claim+technology combo because I feel it is a great example of how the average price that people are paying for quality audio could increase. It's not so hard for me to envision this scenario:
.Someone buys some cans that are a bit bright in the upper treble
.They notice sibilance more
.They come into the forum looking for solutions
.Someone says "buy new cans"
.Someone else says "buy a multibit DAC" which can now be had at a "reasonable price."
.The person decides that since their built-in DAC is the "weak link", they will try the DAC solution
 
And there we go, all other things held constant, this person is paying more for what is very probably not an actual solution to his problem. Now perhaps he can convince himself that he hears fewer Ss and Shs (god help them if they like Russian opera), but then we're really getting into what it means to "hear" something.

I understand what you are saying. When I first bought my HD700 I really liked it. But after a few months I came to realize that the upper level spike was really bothering me. But I was under no illusion that I could solve the problem with a different DAC or amp. I did extensive home evaluations of the HD800S and the Beyer T1 Gen 2 and ultimately settled on the S.
 
I'm just not sure why you have focused on the multibit DACs. I've seen numerous cases where people tried to solve problems they were facing with a particular headphone by foolishly trying a wide variety of different DACs or amps.I don't spend a lot of time on the Schiit threads, but I haven't noticed a pronounced effort by users of their multibit DACs to solve sibilance or treble spike problems they are experiencing with their headphones. But I could be wrong about that because as I said I don't spend a lot of time on those threads.
 
I'm not personally invested in defending my purchase of the Bimby. I had already given up on the HD700 by the time I bought it. I just know that the particular system I have now has provided me countless hours of listening enjoyment and I have no reason to believe that will change or that I will be tempted to upgrade in the foreseeable future.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. Dillan,
 
You might be missing the point behind these "ultra" expensive products, they're for the people on the other side of the "Velvet Rope", not for regular salt of the Earth types like us "the unwashed masses"!
 
Unless:
You have a 400sq.ft. Closet for your Suits ( in each of your 5 Houses ), your spouse has a number of Dressage Horses that you "Fly" to events around the Globe ( Mrs. Romney ), you are one of the heirs of the Walmart Corporation or perhaps one of the Children of a Foxcomm President ( living in Canada ).  
 
I've experienced the MSB stuff and the Yggy, my old ears hear nothing special, which I was rather surprised by.  I had my hearing examined by University of Michigan Medical staff to help me understand this and discovered numerous correctable issues.  I corrected and still these "pricy" high performance designs "do-not" move the "needle" for me.  The Famous Bob Katz is equally "un-moved", which helps me feel "normal".
 
I conclude that a large contingent of this pricy stuff is nothing more that the "King's new Suit", even Jason Stoddard has said "DACs are boring", for god's sake!
 
Performance in Audio headphones seems to top out with Chord and Cavalli sorts of products, the pricier stuff is packaging and fluff! 
 
The Focal phones seem to fit right in with the HD800, the big Stax and the big Hifiman.   $5,000 for headphones is the Zenith.  
 
$145,000 is an expensive solution to a $10,000 problem.
 
Tony in Michigan
 
ps.   an exclusive solution for the folks that own a "Private Jet" but need a nice Birthday Gift for "daddy"

 

[RRod]

  II'm just not sure why you have focused on the multibit DACs. I've seen numerous cases where people tried to solve problems they were facing with a particular headphone by foolishly trying a wide variety of different DACs or amps.I don't spend a lot of time on the Schiit threads, but I haven't noticed a pronounced effort by users of their multibit DACs to solve sibilance or treble spike problems they are experiencing with their headphones. But I could be wrong about that because as I said I don't spend a lot of time on those threads.

 
I am focusing on it because it's a fresh topic and it is a good example of the kinds of myths that can come about due to a lack of objectivity. A search for sibilance by recency brings it up, and thus my point about a poor soul wandering in and getting sucked into the rabbit hole. There are certainly bigger fish to fry, but it's the accumulation of all these things that can edge up how much people are paying for "good sound."

 

[RRod]

You forgot the next step. It's viral. Once a DAC synergy expert determines that the multibit sounds better than a few other DACs he's tried with headphone X, he shares it in the owners/impressions thread for X, and off we go. Multibit DAC synergy pandemic!

 
Exactly! Now we have yet another convoluted entry into the matrix of synergy that could be fixed by a down-wheel on a slider.

 

[U-3C]

Even easy to drive earphones surely sound better with amp than without. Bass tightens up, highs don't roll off and the mids will stand out much more with more air around the voices. Also the sound stage enlarges. Just try it.







Jk although this could be a quote written to me.

^^THIS.

...and that's how I purchased my last audio product.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr.RRod,
 
Quit right!    Isn't that what Head-Fi is all about? 
 
Tony in Michigan
 
ps.  there are a few lads that own "Standards" i.e. Mastering Engineers, these guys are Delta Sigma Dac people, they all say that R2R Dacs are "old-school" and should be retired. ( I say that about Vinyl )

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Re proving or unproving things via blind tests,

As said before, blind tests don't convince anybody these days--among other reasons stated above I'd like to add, that to properly conduct a blind test in a way that removes confounding telltales from the equation, often requires control methodologies that "the other side" will not accept. For example, if the DACs have a timing as well as volume difference, then fast switching between them would not work unless you run the signals through something like VSTHost with a delay plugin on one side, which would immediately make the blood boil in audio purists :basshead:

I think we need a more convincing demonstration that more people can accept. E.g. we could have a demo black-box system driving a HD800, that sounds "smoother", "more detailed yet less fatiguiing", etc. than any source/DAC/amp system the audiophile cares to throw at it. Then we open the black box to show a bog-standard smartphone running a custom HD800 correction profile on Viper4Android or something.

 

[Koolpep]

Re proving or unproving things via blind tests,

As said before, blind tests don't convince anybody these days--among other reasons stated above I'd like to add, that to properly conduct a blind test in a way that removes confounding telltales from the equation, often requires control methodologies that "the other side" will not accept. For example, if the DACs have a timing as well as volume difference, then fast switching between them would not work unless you run the signals through something like VSTHost with a delay plugin on one side, which would immediately make the blood boil in audio purists :basshead:

I think we need a more convincing demonstration that more people can accept. E.g. we could have a demo black-box system driving a HD800, that sounds "smoother", "more detailed yet less fatiguiing", etc. than any source/DAC/amp system the audiophile cares to throw at it. Then we open the black box to show a bog-standard smartphone running a custom HD800 correction profile on Viper4Android or something.

Your subjects will throw up their hands and scream to point out the evil EQ witchcraft you used. Which means you went the easy way and not the rocky, hard, manly one of assembling the best synergy with dacs, amps, USB regenerators, cables and interconnects and of course a specific headphone cable, to suit the HD800.

Cheers.

 

[spruce music]

Here is a listening test with a smartphone:
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/can-you-hear-smartphone-recording-28432/
 
And one of the DACs in this group of files is a smartphone too.
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/which-digital-analogue-converter-do-you-prefer-28370/

 

[richard51]

i have never read in any cie. of cable site that one piece of foam for a bucks rightly placed on a wall or no more placed at all there , in an adequately made room treatment can make a difference for your ears  more audible than a one thousand dollars cable.. I have verified that in my own cheaply cost adequately made room treatment.... By the way i have verified by myself that in some case cable make a difference between them and in the same system dac also are different...In audio all is born from your experience and your ears, nothing from opinions, dogmas,marketting....i think measure are useful indications if you are capable to make sense of them, or if your ears says the samething than your apparatus...And if your apparatus doesnt say the samething that your  satisfied ears, the ears always win...

 

 

[krismusic]

It occurs to me that if it is the case that budget to mid price gear is as good as it gets SQ wise,then that is a win for those of us in a limited budget.

 

[pctazhp]

It occurs to me that if it is the case that budget to mid price gear is as good as it gets SQ wise,then that is a win for those of us in a limited budget.

Well that of course depends on the "if". And I guess it could be considered a "win" if it is important to you that no one else has a better system than you.

 

[cel4145]

I think we need a more convincing demonstration that more people can accept. E.g. we could have a demo black-box system driving a HD800, that sounds "smoother", "more detailed yet less fatiguiing", etc. than any source/DAC/amp system the audiophile cares to throw at it. Then we open the black box to show a bog-standard smartphone running a custom HD800 correction profile on Viper4Android or something.

Take a big well known DAC case, put a Modi inside along with a mini DSP in it to manipulate the sound however you want. That could be interesting, too