[Dillan]

   
The thing is that agreement can happen simply by bandwagon effects, but that is another thing that if brought up would get you outcast. As far as the flame-war element brought up previously, my feeling is that 1000+ page threads can deal with the occasional 2-4 page reminder of the existence of other ways to handle this "good sound" business. That being said, people would do better to help out the newbie posts rather than hop into the Schiit thread.

I feel like I would get permabanned for telling a newcomer the truth about bias and pricing and snake oil here to be honest. Which sucks.
 
I wouldn't feel safe introducing someone unless I said the generic "Welcome to head-fi, start out with this dac/amp for your low impedance headphones and also sorry about your wallet."

 

[krismusic]

I was about to drop, what for me is quite a chunk of my disposable income, on a DAP as I had begun to think that maybe the iPhone was not as good as it gets.
It was largely a very honest post from Dillan that stopped me. At least until I follow my own advice and hear it at CanJam!
It seems to me that mainstream electronics from the likes of Apple have got so good these days that boutique manufacturers really struggle to justify their products.
A great shame you won't be at CanJam Dillan. It would have been good to meet you. Mind you, you would probably have started a punch up !!

 

[LajostheHun]

The religion aspect is spot on. It simply implies that no scientific evidence required only belief. Simple is that, and if someone find that insulting perhaps they should have examine themselves further why.
Regarding marketing, actually some companies like Shiit or Cavalli don't really need it as the members here can create such hype that no advertising dollars could match alone.
As for price and performance value. My personal limit is $1000 on anything headphone related, but I probably would never pay more than $300 for a dac, and certainly would never pay anything at all for fancy cables or USB purifiers and other such nonsense.
I don't blame the companies taking advantage of people who let themselves fall into their deception. It is their choice and they doing it willingly. Of course this site is enabler it's how it makes money, is anybody don't know this when they signed up or watched some of their videos?
Knowing all this I'm still here because it's still a somewhat diverse crowd here so there is something of an interest once in awhile, and many of the poster's experiences have at least some entertaining values. YMMV.

 

[cel4145]

The thing is that agreement can happen simply by bandwagon effects, but that is another thing that if brought up would get you outcast

Exactly. But I think it's possible to argue it from a subjectivist perspective, which means maybe some people might be convinced.

That being said, people would do better to help out the newbie posts rather than hop into the Schiit thread.

I will sometimes bring up in the newbie threads that "audio science suggests" and encourage people to go learn more. I try to avoid saying that everyone else is wrong and try to avoid remarks that might seem as disparaging to the opposite point of view. Merely offer it as an alternative way of looking at things that they might want to learn more about. Let people make their own decision.

Most recently this has been the case with smartphones and portable DACs. Thanks to GSMarena's measurements, it's possible to show people how well many flagship smartphones measure with an external amp when the person really just needs more volume. Buy a Fiio A3, and they are set to power most headphones with a phone with likely cleaner output (since most measure better with external amplification).

 

[cel4145]

The religion aspect is spot on. It simply implies that no scientific evidence required only belief. Simple is that, and if someone find that insulting perhaps they should have examine themselves further why.

But why is it necessary to even make that analogy? When it is obviously an ineffective rhetorical strategy, doesn't make sense to bring it up to me. It seems to me it's more about some kind of personal interest in asserting one is right than trying to convince others.

 

[Dillan]

I was about to drop, what for me is quite a chunk of my disposable income, on a DAP as I had begun to think that maybe the iPhone was not as good as it gets.
It was largely a very honest post from Dillan that stopped me. At least until I follow my own advice and hear it at CanJam!
It seems to me that mainstream electronics from the likes of Apple have got so good these days that boutique manufacturers really struggle to justify their products.
A great shame you won't be at CanJam Dillan. It would have been good to meet you. Mind you, you would probably have started a punch up !!

Hey no worries man, you're a friend to me no matter what. We will meet some day I am sure.

 

[krismusic]

Hey no worries man, you're a friend to me no matter what. We will meet some day I am sure.

It was you and the manufacturers I was worried about!
To continue the theme. I think that there is something a bit dubious about turning audio into a hobby at all. Listening to music is essentially a passive activity. Perhaps people try to turn it into an active pursuit with all the talk of synergy etc.
Essentially you are just buying stuff.
I like the paraphernalia as much as anyone but I only spend money on stuff that genuinely improves my life.

 

[Dillan]

The religion aspect is spot on. It simply implies that no scientific evidence required only belief. Simple is that, and if someone find that insulting perhaps they should have examine themselves further why.
Regarding marketing, actually some companies like Shiit or Cavalli don't really need it as the members here can create such hype that no advertising dollars could match alone.
As for price and performance value. My personal limit is $1000 on anything headphone related, but I probably would never pay more than $300 for a dac, and certainly would never pay anything at all for fancy cables or USB purifiers and other such nonsense.
I don't blame the companies taking advantage of people who let themselves fall into their deception. It is their choice and they doing it willingly. Of course this site is enabler it's how it makes money, is anybody don't know this when they signed up or watched some of their videos?
Knowing all this I'm still here because it's still a somewhat diverse crowd here so there is something of an interest once in awhile, and many of the poster's experiences have at least some entertaining values. YMMV.

Cheers, thanks for your post and I pretty much agree with all of it. I tend to stick around, because this is the few places I can keep up with local events to actually get a chance to listen first hand to compare different things.. as well as ask important questions that I can't find elsewhere regarding a potential purchase. Those two things are important to me and keep me around head-fi.. although reluctantly.

 

[LajostheHun]

But why is it necessary to even make that analogy? When it is obviously an ineffective rhetorical strategy, doesn't make sense to bring it up to me. It seems to me it's more about some kind of personal interest in asserting one is right than trying to convince others.

No argument there, it is clearly not a tool to teach but rather pointing out the obvious from one's POV.

 

[castleofargh]

reminds me of this excellent documentary(DVDs never lie!). "this expensive audio device, do you want to know what it is? the marketing matrix is everywhere..."
 
 
 
 
happiness and truth aren't always on the same bill in the same pill.

 

[icebear]

Relax guys, relax ... what honestly is the problem? 

 
Talking people into spending their money and then talking people into spending more money is just the way it works. This is how the world economy works. If someone is stupid enough to blindly believe marketing folks and is not able to listen for himself and make a proper judgement, if he's getting his money's worth, then he will be had a couple of time down the road of his life, simple as that

. This may sound a little sarcastic but this is my simple point of view. I listened to a well hyped 3000$ headphone and was pretty much alone in my opinion how it sounded not like the real instruments and that I didn't like it. I am quite confident that I am able to judge for myself, if I like the sound of something or not, no matter what the hype is. If there is a 125 grand DAC/headphone amp system out there that gets hyped, yeah ok. I wouldn't spent the money on that, a home comes first. But I have no problem with any manufacturer building and pricing a system in a way that gets a lot of attention. So what?
 
If there is chance sometime that the Orpheus 2 will be shown in the NYC area, I will try to audition it, sure why not. I will never spend that much money on a headphone. But I have also heard an about $500 grand 2 channel speaker system and I was disappointed. It's not the price tag that makes the sound, when you have ears to listen

.

 

[U-3C]

Relax guys, relax ... what honestly is the problem?  :rolleyes:

Talking people into spending their money and then talking people into spending more money is just the way it works. This is how the world economy works. If someone is stupid enough to blindly believe marketing folks and is not able to listen for himself and make a proper judgement, if he's getting his money's worth, then he will be had a couple of time down the road of his life, simple as that .

Almost every single person first getting into audio equipment is that stupid. Just like me.

I wish people told me that I was stupid instead of encouraging me to buy into the marketing BS and spend more money.

 

[Peti]

For 145k one can build a hi-fi system that will wash the floor with that headphone "accessory". The headphone "hobby" has been doing its best to catch up with the hi-fi audiophile world's crazy pricings. I have seen special rocks to be sold for 40$ totune your room and audio system (!)  (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm), USB A to USB B cable for 9000$, audiophile-grade micro SD card, "Hi-Rez" audio files uosampled from redbook, etc.
 
Gone are the days when my eyes popped out to see a new pair of headphones for 5.5k a few years back that never had the chance to make it on the Wall of Fame at Innerfidelity. As much as I love headphones and the intimate connection to the music, listening through a true hi-fi system is just different, to put it nice. If I was a bored millionaire, I'd go with the hi-fi system instead of spending 145k on a headphone system sans the headphones themselves.
 
On the other hand, if one gets to learn how to navigate around here and what to take with a grain of salt, one can find himself in the cornucopia of related knowledge and impressions, a sheer size of related information that is unmatched on the internet when it comes to the hobby of personal audio. Also, if I may reverse the OP's "thesis", many of us remember the good ol' days when the HD650 was the king and then you called it a day. Since then we have made an enormous improvement regarding music reproduction on headphones & the prices went up like crazy, too. So would it better if we'd got stuck on that level with the HD5650?

 

[musikevan]

Maybe I'm just getting old, but good audio electronics is much more affordable than the high-end gear of the past few decades. It's not that the technology has improved, although it has,but there are so many more options available to the thrifty audiophile. No one has to spend $$$ on the latest promoted gear to join the club. Anyone remember when single ended pentode amps were all the rage in the 1990s? Console pulls were going for hundreds-- the common stuff, 6bq5, etc.  If you needed power, SAE, and early Van Alstine gear was your goal,but it certainly wasn't cheap.
 
By comparison, there's a plethora of options that will get you near the very best... objective, schiit, beyerdynamic, soundmagic, the list goes on-- and at reasonable cost considering the quality.  There will always be overpriced and hyped gear so long as companies and individuals want your money.

 

[VNandor]

  Relax guys, relax ... what honestly is the problem? 

 
Talking people into spending their money and then talking people into spending more money is just the way it works. This is how the world economy works. If someone is stupid enough to blindly believe marketing folks and is not able to listen for himself and make a proper judgement, if he's getting his money's worth, then he will be had a couple of time down the road of his life, simple as that

.

Good marketing and scamming people should not be the same thing. I'm not sure if I can label selling snake-oil equipment as scamming from a legal viewpoint but in my opinion it is morally unacceptable.

  For 145k one can build a hi-fi system that will wash the floor with that headphone "accessory". The headphone "hobby" has been doing its best to catch up with the hi-fi audiophile world's crazy pricings. I have seen special rocks to be sold for 40$ totune your room and audio system (!)  (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm), USB A to USB B cable for 9000$, audiophile-grade micro SD card, "Hi-Rez" audio files uosampled from redbook, etc.

Don't get me started. I might start selling audiophile-grade metadata for FLAC files (if I change my mind about what's  being "morally acceptable"

), apparently some people believe it can somehow "corrupt" the file, and I've seen that in the sound science sub forum, not in the one for cables