[brown274]

I am wondering what works better or smoother?
The 131 with coaxial or toslink or 151 USB?

I am a newbie with the DAC hookup. I am wanting to hook us a DAC to run my Audioengine A5's from my desktop and I think the Keces will be a good choice. Now I have USB (of course) but my sound card is 5yrs old. Now If I got a new soundcard and the 131, would it sound better than the 151 USB?

If 151 is best, then I am set. If 131 is best, what way would I want to hook it up and what soundcard would be best. I do not game.

 

[Maniac]

Hello Brown274,

What kind of sound card do you have?

 

[brown274]

An old soundblaster 24bit

Since USB 3.0 is comming out next year, will a 3.0 DAC work better than the 2.0?

I would hate to spend $300 now and then a udpated 151 with 3.0 support came out.

 

[sum1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif BTW, as a side note, DA-152 is now ready to ship. Please see the following link for more details: KECES DA-152 Integrated Headphone Amp & DAC. Finally! (READY TO SHIP NOW!)

Maniac, on that page you mention that the RMAA indicates a lower noise floor. Can you please share the full RMAA results for the KECES DAC.

 

[qib]

perhaps this is too much of a simple question for maniac but is the bass strong on the keces-da152? You can post back on the da-152 thread if you like but i would really like to know.

 

[Maniac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brown274 /img/forum/go_quote.gif An old soundblaster 24bit Since USB 3.0 is comming out next year, will a 3.0 DAC work better than the 2.0? I would hate to spend $300 now and then a udpated 151 with 3.0 support came out.

USB audio for most chipsets are stuck at USB 1.1 and no further. As for audio products, you do not always aim for the latest, but find the one that fits your budget and stay with it until the upgrade bug bites again.

But if you are really concerned, you can also consider DA-131.1, but please also budget a little for a bit-perfect output sound cards. I think there are some relatively cheap ones around that can be more suitable than your soundblaster.

If you do have the budget, then I'd recommend EMU1212M or RME HDSP9632 as digital source.


Thanks

David

 

[Maniac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sum1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maniac, on that page you mention that the RMAA indicates a lower noise floor. Can you please share the full RMAA results for the KECES DAC.

I'll post the RMAA soon, as the reference to the noise floor being lower, it is referencing the unit when being powered by the original analog power and the new analog power. At the time of testing, we have noticed that the low frequency noise of the new power supply is even better than the simple db value had indicated.

 

[runeks]

Hello Maniac.

I'm getting very interested in DACs. I've been reading about them for the past month or so, but previous to that I didn't even know what they were. I've taken a liking to the Keces because of the fantastic reviews, but I'm still not quite sure of which DAC to buy as there are so many different opinions on the sound quality of all the different DACs available. But you seem like an honest guy so I figured I'd ask you my questions in this thread.

In a thread I've read, starting in this post (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/cha...5/#post3680901), people are very fond of the DAC "Channel Islands Audio VDA-2". It is said that because, as far as I can understand, it doesn't have any OP Amp in its output stage it avoids the inherent sonic limitations of an IC OP Amp. It is said that a discrete output stage, all else being equal, will sound better than an output stage with an OP Amp. (Please correct me if I've misunderstood something here, 3 days ago I didn't even know what an OP Amp was

)

What is your opinion on this? Do you disagree with this since the Keces uses an IC OP Amp in its output stage, or is it just more expensive to design a DAC without using OP Amps which would thus make the Keces too expensive?

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[Maniac]

Hello Runeks,

IMHO a good design is a good design, it does not matter if it uses op amp or not. For example, one of the things that is a PAIN in the backside for all discrete circuit designer is the matching of the transistors, while such is not much of a big problem with integrated circuits due to the different manufacturing technique used.

There are advantages for IC based designs while there are also advantages to circuits based on discrete circuits. One other advantage for op-amp based circuits is that once manufacturing and design technique had improved, you can very easily upgrade your device's sound to even better level.

Such is exactly what happened with DA-131 to DA-131.1 (also upgradeable by customers themselves), which improved the sound quality greatly.



Really when picking audio stuff, if you can just compare the resulting sound and completely disregard how it is made or what it is made with. You may not always be able to do that, but if you can it would be the best way to go about it. After all, you are not after the parts, but the resulting sound.

I'd really love to see someone compare my KECES DACs to Channel Islands' stuff, as both of our products are aimed at smaller dimensions, and who knows what the results might be.

Thanks

David

 

[runeks]

Hey Maniac

I see your point. The only relevant measure about a DAC should be its sound quality. It's a shame that no one has had a chance to compare the Keces to other DACs in its price range though. I'm kind of waiting for that. The Cambridge DACMagic and Channel Islands VDA-2 would be interesting to compare it with.

I've also read a bit on the Burson OP Amp (Burson Discrete Opamp) and I see your point there as well. They state themselves that it's necessary to test and match the various components in this OP Amp and that many of them are rejected. I looked at the price of an OP Amp like this and it is about £50! Compared to the $10 for the OP Amp in the 131.1 that is quite a difference!

But, again, if the sound quality gets that better it might be worth it. If I end up buying a Keces unit I think I'll try these OP Amps in it (provided I can get someone to put them in for me). Even though they are quite big it seems to be possible, there's a picture of a modded Keces 131.1 on the Burson site:

And this is his comment:

"I installed the opamps in the KECES DA-131.1 replacing the LME49710 Opamps. Before the upgrade the LM sounded like I was outside the room listening to the players, but with the discrete opamps I feel like I am now in the room with the players.....awesome. There is a certain snap to the music, more refined highs, extended bass, but articulate, multiple voices better separation, cybals have that life like shimmer, easy to discern nylon strings from metal on acoustic guitars.......overall awsome upgrade." (1)

Whether this is an overstatement is hard to tell, but it certainly sounds like there's some difference. Now I only wonder if those £50 spent on OP Amp could have been made to better use elsewhere... Again, the only way to find out is to test. I wish I knew more about circuit design, I'm starting to find it really interesting

.

 

[DaMnEd]

Such Discrete opamps can be had cheaper here: н¨ÍøÒ³ 1

It is now a common opamp upgrade within ZERO DACs owners group, check out this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...re-amp-269458/ (search for audio-gd / OPA-Earth / OPA-Sun / OPA-Moon)

Also check this one out: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/opa...pdates-372219/

 

[theeviljesus]

Hey guys

I've been reading through this thread and the Keces 151 seems to be a very interesting option for me since I'm planning to aquire a DAC.
My current setup is a HP 8510p (foobar/amarok with mostly 320/vbr mp3 and flac) -> L/R RCA from hp out (that sucks I know..) -> Yamaha RX-V659 -> Ultrasone PRO 750.

I've just some questions left:

1. I'm also thinking about buying a dedicated HP amp. I have the NX-03/RPX-33 on my candidates list (still need to research on some others like LD/Darkvoice etc). Do you think the Keces is an appropriate source for one of these amps?
2. @Maniac: In one of your posts you mentioned
   Quote:
   
   

   As well if you are going to use DA-131, I can honestly recommend 1212M as the digital source of DA-131 as the digital output quality of 1212M is of very high quality and pairs well with DA-131

   
   
   Do you think this combination would be worth the (not so little) extra money in my case to assure that I needn't upgrade later on (let's assume I have one of the mentioned amps
   
   )? (sq wise and concerning the 24bits/192KHz support of 131 about which I'm not even sure wheter I can profit from...)

Of course the final decison's up to me but anyways I'd appreciate some opinions

Thanks!

 

[Maniac]

Have you considered DA-152, which integrates a high performance headphone amp with DA-151?

As for DA-131.1, with a bit perfect sound card, it will sound better than DA-151 due to the inherent advantage of better DAC chip and similar supporting circuit.

Thanks.

 

[theeviljesus]

@Maniac: Thanks for the quick answer, really appreciate that "not-yet-a-costumer"-support you "offer" on Head-Fi

The DA-152 would definitely make things easier (no need to connect different parts) - I hope for some reviews comparing to stand-alone amps with separate DAC since I have no experience with either solution. I'll also search on more general topics concerning hybrid (?) vs stand-alone

Since money is *not really* the main issue (if I can convince my greedy wallet that the investement is worth it...

) , a pricier setup with the 131 is also possible. Decisions, decisions...

Recently I've stumbled upon "balanced setups". Since my US 750 isn't balanced that's not yet a questions but still I'm interested wheter there are special requirements on the DAC involved (sorry if that's too much OT). And would the Keces be capable of those?

Thanks again!

 

[dunski]

After much research I ordered the Keces DA-151 today. Can't wait to get it!

I have to thank Maniac for his help and his lightning fast response on the order! Thanks