[Jack Nicholson]

Dont get me wrong I say you are exaggerating (my opinion) and the reason is probably because you like the FA sound very much.

 

[Magedark]

This headphone was very stunning to listen to. Connected through the Canamp and listening to that same album, coincidentally on, was just a shocker.
I'm beginning to like the Fischer Audio sound too...

 

[kiteki]

-

 

[Magedark]

I think I'm lost, is this hype-fi.com.

This entire place is.

 

[SobbingWallet]

 
Quote:

ye LFF you see wheres the problem? first in the f-003 review you say that the cans are on par with headphones which cost 500-600$
than you say that this is pretty much a small f-003 without the comfort of the bigger one
so that means that this headphone is on par with ~7 times the price
I think u are exaggereting a bit and the explanation is probably that you just like the sound of FA phones very much (their signature)

 
 
I think it's important to consider the state of the industry when you compare the price/performance ratios of different manufacturers.  Sennheiser, Beyer, Denon, AKG, and especially STAX seem to have grown extremely comfortable with their positions in the audiophile headphone industry.  They compete with each other, but they're all pretty happy with the status quo price/performance ratio, so none of them are really interested in shaking things up too much.  Whenever this happens in any industry, the price levels gradually inflate (or decrease slower than manufacturing costs) to accomodate larger profit margins and gradually increasing inefficiency through laziness.  None of the big boys want a price war, so they advance their mainstream lineups slowly.
 
To give an example of where the industry has/had been heading, consider Sennheiser's HD800.  They innovated with this headphone (it's far more revealing than their other models), but not in a price/performance sense; they didn't bring break price barriers with efficiently manufactured audiophile headphones.  Instead, they simply created an outrageously expensive high-end product, which earned them a bit more prestige and made the $300-$600 ballpark seem much less expensive in comparison.  Another poster on this board commented recently that the "high end" is moving farther and farther out of reach, and headphones in the $2000 range are now considered "entry level" to the "high end."  This encourages people to spend more money:  If $300 is barely more than entry-level and $600 only nabs you mid-tier audiophile headphones, just imagine how much quality you'd be losing by getting something less than $200!   There are people on this board who spend as much on a STAX flagship and amp as it would take to buy a good car or put a modest down payment on a house.
 
Headphone prices just do not directly reflect absolute performance.  They reflect absolute performance only indirectly, and only with a large margin of error (especially given that performance rises logarithmically with price in this industry, hence diminishing returns).  The price levels between different manufacturers reflect a mixture of brand prestige and relative quality, and the price levels between the same manufacturers' different products reflect a mixture of relative quality and product positioning/marketing.  Consumers allow this by maintaining a demand for these products at current price levels.
 
In other words, the labor theory of value is completely false:  Prices do not necessarily reflect the cost of R&D/parts/labor, and even when they do, they could reflect excess or inefficiency in any of those categories.  For instance, we already know that it's possible to make a world-class headphone driver cheaply:  Check out the Fostex T50RP!  These headphones cost $74 shipped from bhphotovideo.com, and their only weakness is poor enclosure design.  With some DIY know-how and cheap craft materials, they can be modified to match or exceed the quality of Audeze LCD-2's.
 
This same principle applies to Fischer Audio:  If they apply their limited resources more wisely than Sennheiser, Beyer, Denon, AKG, STAX, etc., they can create products with significantly higher price/performance ratios than their incumbent competition.  Since they're newcomers to the industry, they HAVE to do this (or create a standout flagship) to set themselves apart, or they'll fail.  The big boys have grown too used to their position, and companies like Fischer are bringing back the kind of cutthroat competition the headphone market needs.
 
Does the <$100 FA-006 really sound as good as, or close to as good as, the HD600?  Does the $118 FA-011 really sound as good as, or close to as good as, the DT990?  I don't know, because I haven't heard them (though I have an FA-011 on the way, and I can't wait).  What I do know is that it's about damn time that someone really moved the market forward like that, and we shouldn't be especially surprised if Fischer has risen to the challenge.  If they haven't, someone else will, sooner or later.
 
The same principle applies to amplifiers:  The niche headphone amp market has been pretty insulated from cutthroat competition for a while, so companies like Schiit and Burson can easily charge >$400 for powerful, delicious-sounding amps like the Lyr, etc.  The cost of colored amps may or may not be justified by the amount of time and energy a company put into making it sound as subjectively warm and yummy as they could, and YMMV.  However, not everyone needs to pay such high prices for good sound, companies like FiiO are finally coming along to break price barriers on decent, warm-sounding amps.  FiiO amps won't have synergy with the same headphones, and they're probably not going to bring in as much pleasant, musical-sounding harmonic distortion as a tube amp, but they're seriously changing the headphone amp market.
 
On the other side of the headphone amp market, companies like Violectric are charging $1000 for amps that simply amplify an electric signal with good measurements.  This is hardly reflective of necessary costs; the science of amplifying an electric signal with minimal distortion has been settled for decades.  It's no ongoing mystery, and it doesn't require secret sauce, and there is no reason it should be anywhere near that expensive, especially with power levels as low as what we're using for headphones (and it shouldn't be particularly expensive for 1000 watt amps, either).  The Objective 2 amp has risen to address this particular gap, and to my knowledge it does so quite well.
 
In short, you shouldn't be surprised if a newcomer is setting an extremely low price point for a product that may be comparable to the heavy-weights:  That's how competition incites change in a lazy market, and it's about damn time that someone might be getting the ball rolling.  The timing makes sense too, given the headphone market has been growing rapidly lately (probably due to Beats hype).
 
I might be biased, of course:  I ordered an FA-011 due to LFF's review and the feedback from other head-fi members, and I've made it into my avatar (excited for them to actually arrive).  I WANT them to be as good as they're made out to be, which is basically "competitive with the DT-990."  That's not really the issue here though:
It really does seem that Fischer is helping to push the headphone market forward with better price/performance ratios, but regardless of whether their products are really "that good," it doesn't change the basic point:  We shouldn't be that surprised if they do turn out to be, because we're quite simply due for that to happen.
 
BTW, this is my first post, so...hi everyone.

 

[oyster]

There have been cases when people didn't like even the HD800 or LCD2, but that doesn't make their million fans a liar.
 
If you haven't heard it 1) you are motivated to hear it
                                2) you get frustrated by praise/criticism -> you try to conclude it
 
IF YOU HAVEN'T HEARD IT, TRY NOT TO CONCLUDE IT.

 

[FlySweep]

GREAT first post, SobbingWallet.. welcome..
 

IF YOU HAVEN'T HEARD IT, TRY NOT TO CONCLUDE IT.

^^BINGO^^

 

[kiteki]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LFF /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
- Only a few high end dynamics, some orthodynamics and some electrostats are able to beat the level of the FA-006 with this demo track - however, they all need amps...the FA-006 did not.
 
- I would highly recommend you listen to them with an amp.
 
- Even straight out of a DAP like the Clip+, the FA-006 shines.
 
- the FA-006 should be THE headphone to buy if you only want to spend $100 or less.
 

HIGHLY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!

 

 
 
 
Quote:

[/] Then again, I own a couple of FA products (all IEMs though) and they're all great value compared to other products in this niche. [/]
 

Hi Neganiku, that's nice, let me share my experience too, the FA Marcus fell apart within two weeks, on L and R, even before that happened I think cheap Sony, Jays or JVC IEM's have 10 times better sound quality.
 
 
 

 

[SobbingWallet]

Quote:

GREAT first post, SobbingWallet.. welcome..
 

^^BINGO^^

Thanks, FlySweep!  I'm glad it wasn't as tl;dr as I feared.

 

[kiteki]

 
Quote:

 
 I'm glad it wasn't as tl;dr as I feared.

Except next time perhaps you should wait for the product to actually arrive first, before you hype up the company.
 
 
Just FYI, the Jays q-Jays and Ultimate Ears UE700 are actually cheaper than the DBA-02.
 

 

[LimeANite]

He was hardly hyping Fischer.  Unless I misread, the point of SobbingWallet's post was to point out that just because something is less expensive doesn't necessarily mean that it's worse.  Also that the headphone market has stagnated price-wise, so we shouldn't be too surprised if a smaller/newer company is able to produce a product at a lower price point that sounds as good as more expensive models from more established manufacturers.
 
It was obvious that he's hoping that Fischer is that company (he ordered the FA-011, after all), but the point still stands whether they are or not.

 

[SobbingWallet]

Quote:

 

Except next time perhaps you should wait for the product to actually arrive first, before you hype up the company.
 
 
Just FYI, the Jays q-Jays and Ultimate Ears UE700 are actually cheaper than the DBA-02.
 

 
I think you misunderstood:  I'm not meaning to hype up Fischer in particular.  I'm just saying that it shouldn't be surprising if they turn out to be the real deal, because the current state of the industry practically demands that such a company will show up sooner or later.  The subtext is that it's perfectly reasonable to believe LFF is being honest, and it's unfair to accuse him of shilling or to assume off-hand that his praise is "too good to be true."  Since LFF is being treated with suspicion for his enthusiasm, I get the impression many of his detractors are forgetting the way the market works...which is why I made my post.
 
Basically, what LimeANite said.

 

[donunus]

 
Its pretty funny when looking at these types of rave reviews that controversy and arguments are almost always the result hehehe. Anyway, I got some fa-003s before and they are really good cans except for one fatal flaw that made them sound unnatural to me. It was just that darn upper midrange peak that made them sound unnatural. I know that LFF has modded his fa-003s somehow and I've read reports from others saying that different cups, the stuff you put in the cups etc make them better but I am hoping this issue would be addressed with this fa-006 model even though it was cheaper.


 

 

[kiteki]

 
Quote:

[/] Since LFF is being treated with suspicion for his enthusiasm, I get the impression his detractors are forgetting the way the market works...which is why I made my post.
 
Basically, what LimeANite said.

 
The way the market works is we currently have the ZX700, AD700, MDR-V6, M50, Yuin G2A, Creative Aurvana Live, T50RP, and so on all under $100.
 
I've had three fairly cheap Fischer Audio IEM's, two of them simply fell apart, and the JVC FXC51 walks all over them in sound quality.
 
 
I'm just sharing my perspective to help others.

 

[SobbingWallet]

Quote:

 

 
The way the market works is we currently have the ZX700, AD700, MDR-V6, M50, Yuin G2A, Creative Aurvana Live, T50RP, and so on all under $100.
 
I've had three fairly cheap Fischer Audio IEM's, two of them simply fell apart, and the JVC FXC51 walks all over them in sound quality.
 
 
I'm just sharing my perspective to help others.

 
I can see that you've had less than admirable experiences with Fischer, so I don't blame you for advising against them.  You've had more firsthand experience than I have after all, and I don't think anyone here believes that every Fischer product has been a home run (or even worth buying at all).  I've heard mixed reviews for the DBA-02 for instance, and the Silver Bullet is supposed to be fragile, despite the well-praised sound quality.  That's not even considering their lower-end mass market models (which probably include the cheap IEM's you bought).
 
All of that is beside the point though:  My post was aimed at posters who assume LFF must be shilling or exaggerating, not because of specific experiences with Fischer, but because they mistakenly can't conceive of a new company offering a much better value than the established names.
 
We do have all those options you mentioned under $100, and some of them are quite new.  That is precisely why we shouldn't be surprised if our inexpensive options continue to get better very quickly or suddenly.