Zuerst
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2004
- Posts
- 2,192
- Likes
- 14
How does the two compare? Would an old Dual CS 5000 sound better than a Rega Planar 3?
Rega P3 and Dual CS 5000
- Thread starter Zuerst
- Start date
Ted Goldie
New Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2007
- Posts
- 36
- Likes
- 0
I have the Dual and I love it. I have had it for years. You can put a really good needle on it and get good results. I have the Grace F9E and it is really sweet. The Rega is a really nice turntable. I found a review comparing them both and I agree the Rega is a better turntable. They are close and I would think about the cartridge as much as the turntable. A good needle on the Dual will blow away the Rega. If you put a really nice needle on the Rega it would be a better turntable if you can afford it. Here is the review.
Dual turntables have never sounded as good as Regas - bass is quite lightweight, and they're overly slick and airbrushed sounding. Although they make very nice noises, with a smooth and sweet tonality and no obvious vinyl nasties, they're a little unengaging. The CS5000 is like this but more so - plug it into a modern system and it sounds beautifully polished and refined, and makes a very pleasing job of anything you care to play. It doesn't, however, really get to the heart and soul of the music as a Rega Planar 3 would.
The good news is that all Duals - and the CS5000 in particular - are now pretty unfashionable, and as such superb value first turntables. If you've been born and raised with CD, you'll be amazed how sweet and beguiling vinyl can be for such a small outlay.
Good luck. You will be surprised how good vinyl can sound.
Believe it or not I was making the same decision you are about twenty-five years ago between a Rega and the Dual. Remember the needle is key here!!!!!
Dual turntables have never sounded as good as Regas - bass is quite lightweight, and they're overly slick and airbrushed sounding. Although they make very nice noises, with a smooth and sweet tonality and no obvious vinyl nasties, they're a little unengaging. The CS5000 is like this but more so - plug it into a modern system and it sounds beautifully polished and refined, and makes a very pleasing job of anything you care to play. It doesn't, however, really get to the heart and soul of the music as a Rega Planar 3 would.
The good news is that all Duals - and the CS5000 in particular - are now pretty unfashionable, and as such superb value first turntables. If you've been born and raised with CD, you'll be amazed how sweet and beguiling vinyl can be for such a small outlay.
Good luck. You will be surprised how good vinyl can sound.
Believe it or not I was making the same decision you are about twenty-five years ago between a Rega and the Dual. Remember the needle is key here!!!!!
lini
Thought the last line in Citizen Kane was nosebud.
Quote:
The drive is a lot more sophisticated on the Dual, while the Rega has the more solid, but less versatile arm. Sonically, it'll be pretty much a tie between slightly different flavours (appropriate choice of cartridge and equally good working condition provided for each) - technically, the Dual is more complex, convenient and versatile, but also more prone to defects (maybe a good reason to go for the 750 or 750-1 instead, btw...).
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
| Originally Posted by Zuerst /img/forum/go_quote.gif How does the two compare? Would an old Dual CS 5000 sound better than a Rega Planar 3? |
The drive is a lot more sophisticated on the Dual, while the Rega has the more solid, but less versatile arm. Sonically, it'll be pretty much a tie between slightly different flavours (appropriate choice of cartridge and equally good working condition provided for each) - technically, the Dual is more complex, convenient and versatile, but also more prone to defects (maybe a good reason to go for the 750 or 750-1 instead, btw...).
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
Uncle Erik
Uncle Exotic
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2006
- Posts
- 22,596
- Likes
- 532
A vintage Dual is one of the decks I considered when buying a turntable. They're often recommended here and I think they're good.
However, a used Planar 3 turned up at a great price during my search and I went with one. It's a great deck. The sound is very nice and I've had zero problems with it. Setup was fast and I use it every day. I am very happy with the purchase. Of course, there are a lot of good decks out there, but the Planar 3 is working out great for me.
The other benefit to these decks is the incredible array of aftermarket parts for them. You can get any part you need, stock or upgrade, and install it yourself with just a screwdriver. They're very simple, so if there is a repair, you can do it yourself in 10-15 minutes. The simplicity was a big draw for me, as well.
However, a used Planar 3 turned up at a great price during my search and I went with one. It's a great deck. The sound is very nice and I've had zero problems with it. Setup was fast and I use it every day. I am very happy with the purchase. Of course, there are a lot of good decks out there, but the Planar 3 is working out great for me.
The other benefit to these decks is the incredible array of aftermarket parts for them. You can get any part you need, stock or upgrade, and install it yourself with just a screwdriver. They're very simple, so if there is a repair, you can do it yourself in 10-15 minutes. The simplicity was a big draw for me, as well.
memepool
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2004
- Posts
- 2,690
- Likes
- 19
Quote:
The more expensive direct drive Dual's were never as well received as their lowlier belt drives mainly becuase they weren't really that much better sounding, as far as I remember, but cost a lot more.
The CS-5000 is a very polished version of the CS505-2 with a lovely wooden plinth and the ability to play 78s which is really cool but it was a pretty dated design up against the Rega's in the mid '80s so the same holds true now more than ever.
If you can get one going cheap say under 200USD for a mint example then it's a good buy but I wouldn't pay much over this unless you really want to play 78s and a Lenco is a much better bet if this is the case. You should be able to pick up a CS505-2 for 100USD or less and there really isn't that much in it soundwise. I'd take either of these over a belt drive SL-BDXX Technics though.
The Rega P2/3 really outclasses these which is why almost every budget deck today is a Rega clone, even though they themselves are pretty overpriced these days.
| Originally Posted by lini /img/forum/go_quote.gif The drive is a lot more sophisticated on the Dual, while the Rega has the more solid, but less versatile arm. Sonically, it'll be pretty much a tie between slightly different flavours (appropriate choice of cartridge and equally good working condition provided for each) - technically, the Dual is more complex, convenient and versatile, but also more prone to defects |
The more expensive direct drive Dual's were never as well received as their lowlier belt drives mainly becuase they weren't really that much better sounding, as far as I remember, but cost a lot more.
The CS-5000 is a very polished version of the CS505-2 with a lovely wooden plinth and the ability to play 78s which is really cool but it was a pretty dated design up against the Rega's in the mid '80s so the same holds true now more than ever.
If you can get one going cheap say under 200USD for a mint example then it's a good buy but I wouldn't pay much over this unless you really want to play 78s and a Lenco is a much better bet if this is the case. You should be able to pick up a CS505-2 for 100USD or less and there really isn't that much in it soundwise. I'd take either of these over a belt drive SL-BDXX Technics though.
The Rega P2/3 really outclasses these which is why almost every budget deck today is a Rega clone, even though they themselves are pretty overpriced these days.
proglife
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2003
- Posts
- 646
- Likes
- 69
can't compare the two, but I couldn't be more happy with my P3 purchase. The AT440mla cart sounds great on it.
lini
Thought the last line in Citizen Kane was nosebud.
memepool: Personally, I wouldn't go hunting for a 5000, either - but only because the 750 and 750-1 were the better, improved models. Apart from that, I don't agree with "very polished version of the CS505-2" - that doesn't do Dual's top models any justice: much better arm incl. vta-adjustment-headshell, really nice quartz controlled belt drive, variable chassis damping... Not that the 505s were bad tables, but the top models were quite significantly better (and in addition support a much broader choice of good cartridges today due to the heavier arm...). I'd say, over in the Thorens world, CS505-2 vs. CS-5000 would be very much like TD280 vs. TD320.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
memepool
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2004
- Posts
- 2,690
- Likes
- 19
Quote:
Ok maybe I'm being a little harsh on Dual. It's a little difficult to try and establish a hiearchy of turntable choices sometimes when they are taken out of the historical context of the market position they were aimed at when they came out.
There is a site here http://www.dual-reference.com/ which makes the attempt to showcase all their machines. I had never even heard of the Golden Stone much less seen one!
However I do think that the 5000 was a bit peculiar compared to the 505. Whereas the latter is one of those almost magical products which is somehow more than the sum of it's parts and is really somehow musical and inspiring beyond it's obvious shortcomings the same cannot be said of the former. The 5000 is somehow overcooked taking the fun out of the 505 but replacing it with a laid back sort of easy listening sensibility.
The Quartz controlled belt drive concept wasn't a great success in Germany, look at the Thorens TD126III. Adding all these electronics into a cheaper belt drive was never that good an idea as it usually came at the expense of the bearing or something more important sonically. Generally these kind of things were better left to Bang and Olufsen.
The arm on the 5000 is certainly more accomodating than the 505 but it's not really a patch on the Rega RB250.
Ultimately it all comes down to how much you can get these things for these days I suppose. As I said for 200USD or less the Dual CS5000 is definitely a bargain but then again you could possibly find a Thorens TD150/160 for the same price or a Sota Sapphire for a hundred dollars more.
| Originally Posted by lini /img/forum/go_quote.gif memepool: Personally, I wouldn't go hunting for a 5000, either - but only because the 750 and 750-1 were the better, improved models. Apart from that, I don't agree with "very polished version of the CS505-2" - that doesn't do Dual's top models any justice: much better arm incl. vta-adjustment-headshell, really nice quartz controlled belt drive, variable chassis damping... Not that the 505s were bad tables, but the top models were quite significantly better (and in addition support a much broader choice of good cartridges today due to the heavier arm...). I'd say, over in the Thorens world, CS505-2 vs. CS-5000 would be very much like TD280 vs. TD320. |
Ok maybe I'm being a little harsh on Dual. It's a little difficult to try and establish a hiearchy of turntable choices sometimes when they are taken out of the historical context of the market position they were aimed at when they came out.
There is a site here http://www.dual-reference.com/ which makes the attempt to showcase all their machines. I had never even heard of the Golden Stone much less seen one!
However I do think that the 5000 was a bit peculiar compared to the 505. Whereas the latter is one of those almost magical products which is somehow more than the sum of it's parts and is really somehow musical and inspiring beyond it's obvious shortcomings the same cannot be said of the former. The 5000 is somehow overcooked taking the fun out of the 505 but replacing it with a laid back sort of easy listening sensibility.
The Quartz controlled belt drive concept wasn't a great success in Germany, look at the Thorens TD126III. Adding all these electronics into a cheaper belt drive was never that good an idea as it usually came at the expense of the bearing or something more important sonically. Generally these kind of things were better left to Bang and Olufsen.
The arm on the 5000 is certainly more accomodating than the 505 but it's not really a patch on the Rega RB250.
Ultimately it all comes down to how much you can get these things for these days I suppose. As I said for 200USD or less the Dual CS5000 is definitely a bargain but then again you could possibly find a Thorens TD150/160 for the same price or a Sota Sapphire for a hundred dollars more.
lini
Thought the last line in Citizen Kane was nosebud.
Quote:
Yup, maybe - at least on the classic Dual. Whereas I'd fully second quite a lot of harshness on the new Dual (i.e. manufacturer Fehrenbacher and distributor Sintron): Their new prices are just ridiculous, while the build quality/quality control has become rather sloppy.
Quote:
True - even if I'm not sure, whether the historical context and market position would be so important for a ranking. But the numerous variables in a phono chain alone already make a pure sonical ranking very difficult - even more so, if one accepts or welcomes the coexistence of different sonical flavours. And if you add other factors like design, comfort features, ease of adjustment et cetera, it's practically a hopeless task.
Quote:
True, there aren't too many of the top model Duals out there. I guess, they already came to late onto the market with these - after 1985, people were rather interested and investing in cd players. And for a lot of the remaining customers, Dual just might not have been a prestigious enough brand - already at that time, one would rather find 'em in bigger consumer electronics stores than in good hifi shops, anyway. That was also the time, when a lot of the classic German brands were slowly dying out (often after having been aquired by other companies like Thomson et cetera...).
Thus the late Dual top models sure weren't giving quartz controlled belt drive a push - whereas the TD126III was a rather expensive table and hence also not really good for pushing qcbd. So I'm not really surprised that it never really caught on.
Regarding the 505s being surprisingly good compared to the rather bland 5000: Yup, the 505s indeed have something magical to them, but I'd also claim that the reputation of the 5000 suffered quite a bit from the choice of stock cartridge (OM20). The AT-OC9 on the 7000 (= Golden One) was a much better choice.
Quote:
I'm not so sure about that - but I never had the opportunity to hear both under equal conditions...
Quote:
Yup, it'll always mainly boil down to price and condition on the used market. If it's not for special reasons (e.g. a collector wishing to complete a certain brand rig), I wouldn't really recommend to look for just one specific model, if one wants to go used...
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok maybe I'm being a little harsh on Dual. (...) |
Yup, maybe - at least on the classic Dual. Whereas I'd fully second quite a lot of harshness on the new Dual (i.e. manufacturer Fehrenbacher and distributor Sintron): Their new prices are just ridiculous, while the build quality/quality control has become rather sloppy.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's a little difficult to try and establish a hiearchy of turntable choices sometimes when they are taken out of the historical context of the market position they were aimed at when they came out. |
True - even if I'm not sure, whether the historical context and market position would be so important for a ranking. But the numerous variables in a phono chain alone already make a pure sonical ranking very difficult - even more so, if one accepts or welcomes the coexistence of different sonical flavours. And if you add other factors like design, comfort features, ease of adjustment et cetera, it's practically a hopeless task.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is a site here http://www.dual-reference.com/ which makes the attempt to showcase all their machines. I had never even heard of the Golden Stone much less seen one! However I do think that the 5000 was a bit peculiar compared to the 505. Whereas the latter is one of those almost magical products which is somehow more than the sum of it's parts and is really somehow musical and inspiring beyond it's obvious shortcomings the same cannot be said of the former. The 5000 is somehow overcooked taking the fun out of the 505 but replacing it with a laid back sort of easy listening sensibility. The Quartz controlled belt drive concept wasn't a great success in Germany, look at the Thorens TD126III. Adding all these electronics into a cheaper belt drive was never that good an idea as it usually came at the expense of the bearing or something more important sonically. Generally these kind of things were better left to Bang and Olufsen. |
True, there aren't too many of the top model Duals out there. I guess, they already came to late onto the market with these - after 1985, people were rather interested and investing in cd players. And for a lot of the remaining customers, Dual just might not have been a prestigious enough brand - already at that time, one would rather find 'em in bigger consumer electronics stores than in good hifi shops, anyway. That was also the time, when a lot of the classic German brands were slowly dying out (often after having been aquired by other companies like Thomson et cetera...).
Thus the late Dual top models sure weren't giving quartz controlled belt drive a push - whereas the TD126III was a rather expensive table and hence also not really good for pushing qcbd. So I'm not really surprised that it never really caught on.
Regarding the 505s being surprisingly good compared to the rather bland 5000: Yup, the 505s indeed have something magical to them, but I'd also claim that the reputation of the 5000 suffered quite a bit from the choice of stock cartridge (OM20). The AT-OC9 on the 7000 (= Golden One) was a much better choice.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif The arm on the 5000 is certainly more accomodating than the 505 but it's not really a patch on the Rega RB250. |
I'm not so sure about that - but I never had the opportunity to hear both under equal conditions...
Quote:
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ultimately it all comes down to how much you can get these things for these days I suppose. As I said for 200USD or less the Dual CS5000 is definitely a bargain but then again you could possibly find a Thorens TD150/160 for the same price or a Sota Sapphire for a hundred dollars more. |
Yup, it'll always mainly boil down to price and condition on the used market. If it's not for special reasons (e.g. a collector wishing to complete a certain brand rig), I wouldn't really recommend to look for just one specific model, if one wants to go used...
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
Users who are viewing this thread
