[markl]

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They do it because it is easy, they are falling back on old-school, traditional values, while users like us are trying to push the envelope of new technology. This is how it always is, whether in social values, technology, etc. Innovators are easily attacked because they have broken off from the status quo. The majority or traditionalists, think that because they have been right in the past, they will continue to be so in the future, regardless of what reality says. Some wise up and adapt. Others go to their graves full of self-reinforcing ignorance and backwardness (like people who think car seatbelts are stupid).

Erm, isn't Geek a teenager? He's a little young to be an "old-school traditionalist", don't you think?

Didn't he "push the envelope of new technology" by trying the RME PAD in the first? So he changed his mind, it's just one opinion, no need to take it all so personally and seriously. Although, it is a *little* curious how a product that can be raved about a few weeks ago, can suddenly be found inadequate thanks to a single CD... Then again, it goes to show the hazards of posting initial impressions, they always change in some way. At least Geek was brave enough to come back, take the heat, and say he changed his mind. That deserves a *little* bit of respect, don't you think?

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Erm, isn't Geek a teenager? He's a little young to be an "old-school traditionalist", don't you think? Didn't he "push the envelope of new technology" by trying the RME PAD in the first? So he changed his mind, it's just one opinion, no need to take it all so personally and seriously. Although, it is a *little* curious how a product that can be raved about a few weeks ago, can suddenly be found inadequate thanks to a single CD...

I didn't take anything personally. While age is usually correlated with how forward or backward thing someone is, it is not the only factor. Revolutionary forward thinkers are not nesscessarily young, and backward mindedness can start very young, it all depneds on your environment and life experiences. I have a friend who is 18, but she is very much a reactionary thinker who wishes life could be like it is in the stereotypes of the 1950's.

Sure at one time geek was one one end of the spectrum, now it appears that he is a traditional audoiphile through and through regardless of his young age.

 

[Earwax]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Erm, isn't Geek a teenager? He's a little young to be an "old-school traditionalist", don't you think? Didn't he "push the envelope of new technology" by trying the RME PAD in the first? So he changed his mind, it's just one opinion, no need to take it all so personally and seriously. Although, it is a *little* curious how a product that can be raved about a few weeks ago, can suddenly be found inadequate thanks to a single CD... Then again, it goes to show the hazards of posting initial impressions, they always change in some way. At least Geek was brave enough to come back, take the heat, and say he changed his mind. That deserves a *little* bit of respect, don't you think?

The way he's gushed about the sound quality of vinyl qualifies him as a traditionalist as far as I'm concerned. As far as "respect" goes, no, this much of a 180 degree turn (January post is pasted below) still does not make any sense to me -- to the point where I can hardly give any of his reviews any credibility from now on. To go from "This sucker sounds almost as good as the meridians I've heard: lively, dynamic, and very good up top with incredible bass articulation" to "If you like classical music, and you like it a lot, do yourself a favor and avoid this sound card. " in 3 months is too much to swallow.

It wouldn't surprise me to find that there's actually something wrong in Geek's current setup, maybe some DSP loaded that's futzing with the sound? But who knows? I've never heard an RME Pad so maybe there is something wrong with it. I have a $25 sound card and I find it entirely listenable -- on a par with a good portable, but not great, so I'd expect the $300 card to be better, BWDIK about sound cards.

Quote:

Originally posted by Geek RME 96/8 PAD - whoa.... Finally got this RME thing working. It's playing my music collection right now at 16/44.1, so no special upsampling or anything. This is the way digital sources should be made. This sucker sounds almost as good as the meridians I've heard: lively, dynamic, and very good up top with incredible bass articulation. Compared to my old santa cruz, this card is basically an all-out improvement, but certain aspects of the sound stick out: 1. Dynamics are great, even on songs that sounded downright bad on my other card. At the upper and lower dynamic extremes, tonality and detail are well preserved. 2. OODLES of detail! This is one thing that I like about this card: not only are more instruments portrayed correctly, but you can hear their character and individual notes. Very involving. 3. Imaging is excellent. Compared to the lackluster imaging of my previous card, this is just plain great, giving a perfect soundstage for the sennheisers. 4. What annoys me most about digital sources, i.e., a hashy, fuzzy, hazy top end, is minimized. It's still there in all of its etched, agonizing glory, but this card does fix it considerably. If I could listen to music at a higher sampling rate I'm sure things would get better. Currently its locked at 16 bit 44.1khz for all of my music. Not bad, though. 5. Soundstage depth, ambience, and "intimacy" are greatly improved. This card woke my sennheisers up from a long sleep. These observations come from using HD650s with the cardas cable, a maxed out home amplifier, dimarzio m-path RCA interconnects, and, of course, my computer. Highly recommended to anyone who wants more out of their computer for listening to quality stuff. Cheers, Geek

http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showt...threadid=56940

 

[markl]

Newer isn't always automatically better, which of course you already know. mp3 is not even as good as crummy Redbook CD. Have you listened to vinyl? At length on a good system? I'm not a vinyl fan myself for practical reasons, it's not convenient enough, and I all my collection is digital. But I still have respect for people who find they prefer the sound of vinyl, it has a lot to offer sonically, no matter how old the technology may be. I'm not going to defend Geek's reviews that I've read; I tend to disagree pretty strongly with him, his views seem pretty iron-clad and "authoritative" for someone so new into audio.

"Good" is good, doesn't matter when or where it came from. If you only believe "newer must be better" then you are as closed-minded as the people you purport to be criticizing.

Meh, I have no dog in this race. Bye.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally posted by Iron_Dreamer Sure at one time geek was one one end of the spectrum, now it appears that he is a traditional audoiphile through and through regardless of his young age.

Iron, I don't see it this way. I see it as here's a guy who's come to appreciate the importance of fine engineering and craftsmanship. The RME is a great example of solid engineering within a set of constraints, but it's not prejudiced or "old school" to respect designs that are not shackled by those constraints and take things to the limit in terms of what you can do with great engineering.

Some day Meridian or someone else will come out with a sound card that's nicely encased in copper for shielding and has incredible power supply regulation and filtering, and an awesome scheme for getting rid of ground noise. When that happens, those among us who strive to be objective will be impressed. The RME isn't a Ferrari yet (the success of your own basic mods proves this -- the RME has a long way to go before it will reach its ultimate potential) but someday there may be a sound card that is designed like some of the great standalone CDPs, and we will bow down before it.

 

[Earwax]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Newer isn't always automatically better, which of course you already know. mp3 is not even as good as crummy Redbook CD. Have you listened to vinyl? At length on a good system? I'm not a vinyl fan myself for practical reasons, it's not convenient enough, and I all my collection is digital. But I still have respect for people who find they prefer the sound of vinyl, it has a lot to offer sonically, no matter how old the technology may be.

I grew up on vinyl, my vinyl setup is probably equal in quality to my CD player. (i.e. both are strictly mid-fi). I didn't mean that being a traditionalist in itself was a bad thing, but I often think that being a gushing extremist CAN be a bad thing. I try very hard to be open minded about technology.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Daroid Yup aware of that, and yes I still wouldn't say one can judge how something sounds from RMAA tests or any other similar measurements.

I agree, but one can judge how much IMD, crosstalk, etc. the equipment has. Those things affect the sound, but they don't make the sound. Better RMAA tests translate to better SQ in the limited areas that RMAA tests for, but not in other areas. You can also get an idea how good a piece of equipment is in those specific areas, as compared to other equipment.
Quote:

Originally posted by Daroid Lows and lower middles suffer from a high IMD, funny that many soundcards has a high IMD around 60Hz ?

That isn't IMD, it's power line noise detected in the test. Look at RMAA tests from Europe and you're likely to see the same thing at 50Hz rather than 60Hz. If there's a really big spike at that frequency, it's likely someone was using unshielded or poorly shielded cables for the loopback.

PC monitors can also be picked up as interference at their refresh rate, so it's always best to turn the monitor off when doing an RMAA test (hover the mouse over the "start" button, turn the monitor off, then click).

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wodgy Some day Meridian or someone else will come out with a sound card that's nicely encased in copper for shielding

Hmmmm. Time to go shopping for some sheets of copper.

-Ed

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Edwood Hmmmm. Time to go shopping for some sheets of copper. -Ed

I'd use Mu-metal myself, carefully wrapped around the card (maybe lacquered on the inside to keep from shorting the card out), and possibly grounded to the case. This is a very real possibility in terms of shielding a card from EMI inside the case (it won't do anything about quality of power, of course).

Personally, I don't think shielding a sound card would make much difference in the overall sound quality. The better cards are already designed to maximize SQ in the environment they're used. IMO, quality of parts and power filtering makes a much bigger difference.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch I'd use Mu-metal myself, carefully wrapped around the card (maybe lacquered on the inside to keep from shorting the card out), and possibly grounded to the case. This is a very real possibility in terms of shielding a card from EMI inside the case (it won't do anything about quality of power, of course). Personally, I don't think shielding a sound card would make much difference in the overall sound quality. The better cards are already designed to maximize SQ in the environment they're used. IMO, quality of parts and power filtering makes a much bigger difference.

Yeah, possible power filtering mods are next. Hopefully Glassman can givev some good advice there. He's been very helpful thus far.

Since it draws power from the PCI bus, modding the motherboard's power stages and supply will probably be inevitable as well.

-Ed

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wodgy Iron, I don't see it this way. I see it as here's a guy who's come to appreciate the importance of fine engineering and craftsmanship. The RME is a great example of solid engineering within a set of constraints, but it's not prejudiced or "old school" to respect designs that are not shackled by those constraints and take things to the limit in terms of what you can do with great engineering. Some day Meridian or someone else will come out with a sound card that's nicely encased in copper for shielding and has incredible power supply regulation and filtering, and an awesome scheme for getting rid of ground noise. When that happens, those among us who strive to be objective will be impressed. The RME isn't a Ferrari yet (the success of your own basic mods proves this -- the RME has a long way to go before it will reach its ultimate potential) but someday there may be a sound card that is designed like some of the great standalone CDPs, and we will bow down before it.

I agree with a lot of what you have said. I never said the RME was perfect, heck if it was I would have had no motivation to mod it. However I do think it is likely the best we've got so far. Perhaps a 1970 Ferrari as compared to the 2003 Ferrai Enzo (your hypothetical awesome soundcard that's yet to have been built). After all, the highest end soundcards aren't built for audiophiles per se, they are build for recording pros. We haven't even had a true "audiophile"-grade soundcard before.

However if the modded RME is what can be done with the present (or past) constraints, imagine what a no-holds-barred approach could result in.

 

[Geek]

Sorry if I pushed this too far. I never intended to call the RME inferior or worthless or pathetic or a bad source, these things it is not. I'm just really really darned picky, and broke, and for a $300 setup its versatility more than makes up for the sonic shortcomings I've been takling about (anyone want to hear my techno? I can compose some wicked techno in 96k with fruityloops and this card).

And, yeah, I'm 19 and of the "napster" generation, that was the hottest thing that hit us in high school. I'm of the "mp3 / sony earbudz / bass boom is teh kewl" group. The guys that drive around town blasting boomy garbled crap in their cars, thats the age group I fit into. I consider my tastes esoteric.

The "fuzz" that I'm talking about I only hear after hearing lots of acoustic music - performing in the orchestra today, for example, "re-trains" your ears to hear the very slightest, tiniest details of a performance, and what organic sound is. After about 2 days of not hearing this acoustic reference, I can't distinguish "fuzz" on the RME anymore, it's a very odd thing. If my ears are "warmed up" by playing violin and some piano and singing a little bit, I can identify intervals (m2/M2, m3/M3, P4, TT, P5, etc) almost to perfection, but if this "auditory warm up" does not occur I usually fail to hear the intervals.

Mabye I'm just insane.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[Distroyed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Iron_Dreamer After all, the highest end soundcards aren't built for audiophiles per se, they are build for recording pros. We haven't even had a true "audiophile"-grade soundcard before.

One might wonder just howany musician is capable of creating music that sounds good with apparently higher quality hardware than they use to create and test the music.

But I think we should all keep in mind the title of my mp3 harddrive: The Phenomenology of Music. Geek can't help hearing what he hears, even if it produces absurd results like portables topping a quality soundcard. Albeit, I have a hard time imagining his sense of sound being at all appropriate to make a judgement that might yield similar results for myself. While I would never attack the persona of someone in an argument, I find it relevant here in the sense that a teenagers perspective really is changing from day to day; this explains his overturning, among other things. Unfortunately, I would never take the advice of such an aged person for such a reason (regardless if he loves or hates (or both) this soundcard).

 

[Geek]

If I was asked to buy the RME again, I would answer the following:

If I was to use it as I am now, mixing music through multiple channels, as a general jukebox for music, and I didn't have a soundcard already and didn't want to play games all that much (the RME's emulated directsound driver has too much lag for games), I'd definitely buy the sucker. Especially if I didn't have an amp, it has a pretty nice analog out volume-wise. A recording engineer would have a lot of fun with this card.

If I was to buy it and I was looking for an end-all musical solution, I might consider the other options, and for sonic quality considered over all other possibilities, there are other options which as I said in my original review might be opted for instead of this. The best sound one can get is budget-breaking, and that's just the way it is right now to my ears, you're paying out of your ears for a symphony ticket or you spend thousands on a meridian or similar fidelity player or vinyl. There's just no cheap way to do this, that's the bottom line. I'd love to say its not so, but there's a reason, a damn good one, why people dish out oodles of cash for what seems an overpriced component, its because they actually hear an improvement, that person has listened carefully and to his ears the pricier component sounds better.

Anyways, I hope that my incoherent rants are heading somewhere. Hopefully that "somewhere" is not the right turn lane, taking me and this thread away from the objective, which is assessment of the RME source. Rather, we're pulling into the fast lane to a more effective conclusion.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Uh-oh, geek, if you're having a bit of trouble hearing intervals, you're in some deep doodoo when you have to identify chord qualities

That's me: deep doodoo

Throw a sequence at me and my head starts to spin