Recommended desktop DAC and amp (or whether I need them at all)
Aug 5, 2015 at 9:43 PM Post #16 of 53
Yep motherboard audio through the headphone jack. The computer is reasonably new (Q87 motherboard), it's using a Realtek chip (although I can't track down which one). I can crank it up pretty loud, definitely uncomfortable levels.
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 9:59 AM Post #17 of 53
If you can crank it up so that it's way louder than your typical listening volume, then at least you are definitely getting enough juice to your headphones to power dynamic peaks in music. That situation where there is not enough power is where people often need a headphone amp upgrade.
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 6:55 PM Post #18 of 53
If you can crank it up so that it's way louder than your typical listening volume, then at least you are definitely getting enough juice to your headphones to power dynamic peaks in music. That situation where there is not enough power is where people often need a headphone amp upgrade.

Exactly what I was getting at ^. So an amp alone really wouldn't help much.
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 7:04 PM Post #19 of 53
Cool, that info helps a lot, thanks.
 
So it sounds more and more like if I want better quality it'd be more beneficial upgrading my cans than anything at the moment, then working around whatever I get. Depending on the computer's sound card it may be worth investing in a DAC as well. Does that sound right?
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 7:09 PM Post #20 of 53
I think so :). Just know that once you start getting near / above the $300 range, chances are you'll want dedicated gear to drive those cans. It's kind of a hidden cost. To get a big upgrade from Momentums, going to something like the B&W P7 might be fine without a dedicated amp, but the AKG K712 or so would need one. A clean DAC almost always helps, IME.
 
So, priorities are:
Headphones > amp good enough to drive them > clean DAC.
 
Feel free to ask any more questions :).
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 9:42 PM Post #22 of 53
  Thanks for the advice, I'll keep that in mind. So you think a headphone upgrade would be more beneficial? If so could you advise a couple of options?


As long as you're already using ASIO or WASAPI (or, Kernel Streaming, i.e. any kind of bit-perfect) output in Foobar2000 rather than Direct Sound, then yes, you will get MUCH more of a benefit from upgrading to better headphones than from getting a DAC/Amp.  If you're NOT already using bit-perfect output, do some research on ASIO, WASAPI, and Kernel Streaming (and how to get them in Foobar2000) and start using them right away!
 
About the over-ear Momentums in-particular. . .they are, in my experience, QUITE overrated, unfortunately.  I feel like Sennheiser actually missed the mark on them. . .they sound incredibly dull to me due to the lack of soundstage and imaging.  And the idea that they "need an amp to sound best" is kind of silly, they have an 18ohm impedance and 200mW power-handling rating so just about anything can easily drive them to their maximum potential.k  They sounded quite sub-par on my Fiio X3ii DAP, which has a much better amp section than what is found in more "mainstream" (iPod and such) music players.
 
 
 

That being said, you still WILL get a very noticable benefit, as well, from a better DAC (USB-connected, external) unless your computer happens to have unusually good onboard audio, which it almost definitely does not.  I notice a BIG difference between the sound in Foobar2000 with bit-perfect output through my motherboard's onboard sound, and the sound I get when using my Fiio X3 2nd Generation portable player as an external DAC.  And I'm not using fancy-schmancy high-end headphones, just some mid-range on-ears, the V-Moda Crossfade M-80, and I still notice a big sound improvement with the use of an external DAC.  If you get a DAC, you would want to get something Asynchronous as well as Power-Isolated, ideally, in order tog ive the biggest improvement over onboard sound.  Personally I am looking to get the HiFiMeDIY UAE23+ DAC, it's available for 89.99 and is supposed to be one fo the best options for under a hundred dollars, and uses components (Sabre ES9023 chip, for example) taht normally tend to be found in much higher-priced units from other companies.

As folks are saying, the priority should be first headphones, then Amp/DAC (with no need for amp depending what headphones you do get), with the added caveat of making sure to always use ASIO, WASAPI, or Kernel Streaming for bit-perfect output in Foobar2000.  Some good headphones in the 100-to-200 dollar price-range would be the V-Moda M-80 or V-Moda XS on-ears (I love my M-80s for the price), and for the price-range going higher than the Momentums by a bit, you could get the Sony MDR-1A (for a more colored response) or PSB M4U 1 (for a flatter response) which both sound waaaay better than the Momentums.  I hear the Audio Technica ATH-MSR7 are also great if you don't mind a brighter sound, and Music Alchemist here continues swearing by the Yamaha HPH MT220 for non-electrostats whenever folks ask him for recommendations, and as someone who apparently tends to listen to VERY high-end electrostat headphones from Stax, I'd guess that if he says something sounds good, it must be true :p  You could also go with the option of something open-backed if you feel you don't need isolation, you'll get a more natural sound that way.
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 10:47 PM Post #23 of 53
How your PCM audio gets to the USB receiver should be a non-issue nowadays on modern machines. But it's worth looking into, I'll say.

And MA only likes the Stax sound and always pushes for them. Take that with a grain of salt, and understand where he comes from.
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 10:52 PM Post #24 of 53
And MA only likes the Stax sound and always pushes for them. Take that with a grain of salt, and understand where he comes from.

 
Eh? I like all sorts of sound signatures. It's just that the overall sound quality of STAX is considerably higher than others in the same price range. That doesn't mean that any given person would like it more. In fact, I still prefer the MT220 (and various other headphones) in certain respects.
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 11:14 PM Post #25 of 53
All good, I appreciate the variety of opinions. In the end it comes down to personal preference, what makes people happy is up to them.
 
At the moment I'm leaning towards getting a DAC anyway (probably a Fiio E10K), if only so I have bit-perfect output (and so I can't lay the blame with the onboard audio).
 
I don't have much to compare my Momentums with other than my old Denon AH-D1100s. It's funny but I always seemed to enjoy the Denons more, even if the Momentums are a little more comfortable. As mentioned earlier, I start researching headphones and see what I can realistically afford, the options provided here and in other threads gives me a great starting point.
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 11:16 PM Post #26 of 53
How your PCM audio gets to the USB receiver should be a non-issue nowadays on modern machines. But it's worth looking into, I'll say.

And MA only likes the Stax sound and always pushes for them. Take that with a grain of salt, and understand where he comes from.


There's somethng to be said for someone preferring the Stax sound above all others, considering that the majority-opinion seems to be that they make the best Electrostatics in the world right now :p  I'd give an arm and a leg to be able to get my hands on a SR-009, dude. . .something like that is just soooo far out of my price-range and probably always will be :p
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 11:17 PM Post #27 of 53
At the moment I'm leaning towards getting a DAC anyway (probably a Fiio E10K), if only so I have bit-perfect output (and so I can't lay the blame with the onboard audio).


And that's a good reason. You have good headphones, and you are curious as to whether or not the E10K can improve the sound: it's a small investment. If you get it from Amazon and it sounds the same, you could always send it back for return shipping. That "demo" fee would probably be worthwhile just to know :)
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 11:24 PM Post #28 of 53
  All good, I appreciate the variety of opinions. In the end it comes down to personal preference, what makes people happy is up to them.
 
At the moment I'm leaning towards getting a DAC anyway (probably a Fiio E10K), if only so I have bit-perfect output (and so I can't lay the blame with the onboard audio).
 
I don't have much to compare my Momentums with other than my old Denon AH-D1100s. It's funny but I always seemed to enjoy the Denons more, even if the Momentums are a little more comfortable. As mentioned earlier, I start researching headphones and see what I can realistically afford, the options provided here and in other threads gives me a great starting point.


But you CAN get bit-perfect output already, straight from the headphone jack on your laptop or desktop, by using either ASIO (most commonly Asio4All), WASAPI, or Kernel Streaming in Foobar2000.  All three can be installed as Foobar plugins, and as I said, you should definitely research them.  Even an without an external DAC, as soon as you get bit-perfect output to your headphones in Foobar2000 using one of those three methods, you will notice a vast improvement in the sound.  Lemme put it this way: My biggest increase in sound-quality, when I first got into all this audiophile stuff, was when I switched from generic ten-dollar earbuds from Walmart, to my V-Moda Crossfade M-80 cans.  Then, I noticed a very big, but not AS big increase in quality, when I switched from using Direct Sound output in Windows, to using Foobar2000 and bit-perfect (in my case, I was using ASIO4ALL when I hadn't gotten an external DAC yet) output from Foobar2000.  Then, I noticed yet another increase in quality when I started using Kernel Streaming bit-perfect output from Foobar2000 to my Fiio X3ii as an external DAC, but this time, the change, while noticable, was MUCH smaller and more subtle than the previous improvements.  Mostly an enhancement of the soundstage and imaging, but not much of an enhancement of the actual tone or sound-signature.
 
And if you liked the AH-D1100 better than the Momentum, then there are two possible reasons:  Either you disliked the Momentum, comparatively, due to its lack of soundstage (whcih is the reason why I, personally, hate the Momentum =P), or you very much like a heavily colored, bass-heavy sound-signature like on the AH-D1100!!!!  Or perhaps both :p
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 11:32 PM Post #29 of 53
Oh cool, I didn't know that, yeah I'll give that a try. I did install the WASAPI add-on yesterday, but hadn't had time to give it a test. I'll do some playing around with it and the other options your provided and see what results I can get. 
bigsmile_face.gif
 
 
Aug 6, 2015 at 11:37 PM Post #30 of 53
  Oh cool, I didn't know that, yeah I'll give that a try. I did install the WASAPI add-on yesterday, but hadn't had time to give it a test. I'll do some playing around with it and the other options your provided and see what results I can get. 
bigsmile_face.gif
 

 
In case it helps, the foobar2000 settings I use are covered here: http://www.fidelizer-audio.com/user-guide/
 
(But I usually use JPLAYmini instead of foobar2000.)
 

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