Recommendations for open, full-size headphone with no amplification necessary
Dec 9, 2019 at 11:57 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 11

Ynoskire

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Hi all,

I've had a pair of Sennheiser HD 25-II's forever (13 years of abuse in my backpack and still going strong). However, there are a couple of downsides to the HD 25 that make them less than ideal for home use, so I've decided to get a second pair of cans to complement them. The tricky part of my requirements is that I'll be using them unamped 50% of the time, and want to make sure that anything I buy will sound nice unamped as well

Requirements

- Open headphone as they will only ever be used inside my house

- I've bought a Schiit Jotunheim (multibit DAC version) for the living room, but 50% of the time the headphones will be used in my office whilst I'm working. In that scenario they'll be driven out of a macbook pro. I don't mind losing some sound quality whilst driving them out of the macbook, but I do want to make sure that I'll be able to get a halfway decent sound out of them without using a dedicated headphone amplifier.

- Comfortable over longer periods of time (big HD25 limitation for me)

- musical preferences: 70% classical music, 15% jazz, 15% other stuff

- Sound profile: I'm looking for something that is balanced, I regularly go to classical music performances and play the piano, anything that comes close to mimicking real life as opposed to trying to enhance it (v-shaped sound) is my winner.

The main things I'm looking to improve upon over the HD25 are soundstage and timbre (not sure what the right audiophile word is, instruments simply sound more defined and real when I play music over my Adam A5 monitors and I want to have headphones that do the same)

- Budget: Not strictly defined. A combined 1000 pounds for the portable amp / dac and headphones seems a reasonable long-term investment / Christmas present for myself, but there's no need to use every last penny of budget when returns in sound quality start to diminish.

Current considerations:

- AKG K702
- Sennheiser HD598 / HD600 / HD650
- Audeze LCD2 Classic
- Second hand / on sale Focal Clear
- Second hand HD800

All tips or things to think about are greatly appreciated!
 
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Dec 9, 2019 at 12:36 PM Post #2 of 11
I can't attest to the capabilities of the MacBook Pro (maybe it has decent driving capability), but a lot of these you will probably find listenable without an amp, just may not be getting the full effect (even the low ohm Beyers seem to like a little power in my experience w/ 770). There are some quite affordable USB and bluetooth dongles that would probably be adequate if the macbook is lacking. Might even be newly impressed by the HD25 if you haven't heard them with a reasonably powered source (though I understand the iphone adapter is well regarded).

I'm a fan of Focal Clear- fairly easy to drive, bit weak on subbass and soundstage (its not quite 'in your face' like the 25 but it doesnt create a crazy sound field like the HD800), not too difficult to find sale or secondhand in budget.
 
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Dec 9, 2019 at 1:34 PM Post #3 of 11
Recommendations for open, full-size headphone with no amplification necessary

Technically even a smartphone provides amplification. It's just that on a phone the driver circuit is embedded in the DAC chip instead of separate DAC chip, line stage output chip, headphone driver chip/tube circuit with large power caps, etc.

It's like an Intel CPU with an HD620 or an AMD APU with an embedded RX550 or Vega 3/5/6/8/10, and you just want a game like DOTA or Heroes of the Storm that can run on either without the need for an NVidia RTX 2070 Super or AMD Radeon 5700 as opposed to say Total War: Three Kingdoms or, heck, Battlefield, which can run NVidia's real time ray tracing so it looks like watching a CGI cut scene despite rendering lighting and reflections in real time. Or using a neutered version of Affinity on an iPad with an integrated chip as opposed to running the full desktop version on a gaming computer with at least four physical CPU cores at 4.5ghz and a separate graphics chip.


I've had a pair of Sennheiser HD 25-II's forever (13 years of abuse in my backpack and still going strong). However, there are a couple of downsides to the HD 25 that make them less than ideal for home use, so I've decided to get a second pair of cans to complement them. The tricky part of my requirements is that I'll be using them unamped 50% of the time, and want to make sure that anything I buy will sound nice unamped as well

Requirements

- Open headphone as they will only ever be used inside my house

Somewhat close to the sound (better in some ways) given an absolutely quiet room that increased ambient noise invasiveness won't make that big of a difference: Grado RS2e or RS1e.

Philips SHP9500S is a cheap alternative as well but think of it more like a more comfortable SR60e.


- I'm thinking getting a portable amp / dac for my home office (need to figure out which one, desktop space is limited so I don't want to fill it with audio equipment). 50% of the time the headphones will be used in my living room being driven straight from my macbook pro (2019).

If it's a portable unit I'd just take it to the living room where I'd also be less likely to be pounding on a keyboard thinking about something else, ie, there would be less ambient noise (though of course that means you can use lower volume and less power, at least you can leverage better quality power with lower distortion and noise) and on top of that you'd have all your attention on the music and more likely be able to discern a difference.

That or leave it in the living room. Sure the ambient noise of typing etc (I hope that's not butterfly keys version) will get in the way but you're not paying full attention to the music anyway while you're working or browsing. I have an SR80e on my gaming rig for when I'm just browsing or working on the desktop - granted the motherboard on this thing uses the same op-amp as my Meier amplifier (though just one instead of four) but the thing is if there's either noise from the window and the A/C in the daytime or how the PC's cooling fans are audible at night when those two are not present (despite running slower), I don't have my full attention on the music anyway. When I do run my reference rig I'm using a phone as a server via USB so the system doesn't need any moving parts (like the fans and water pump in my desktop PC).

Leaving the DAC and HPamp in the living room might also make compact AC-powered units possible since you won't need to move them around, unless you just put that laptop on your lap and there's no table beside your seat.

Either way your choices for headphones can include a few more.


- Comfortable over longer periods of time (big HD25 limitation for me)

RS2e with Audiophile C-Pads. Just make sure to adjust the headband as shown on the C-Pads page.


- musical preferences: 70% classical music, 15% jazz, 15% other stuff

- Sound profile: I'm looking for something that is balanced, I regularly go to classical music performances and play the piano, anything that comes close to mimicking real life as opposed to trying to enhance it (v-shaped sound) is my winner.

The main things I'm looking to improve upon over the HD25 are soundstage and timbre (not sure what the right audiophile word is, instruments simply sound more defined and real when I play music over my Adam A5 monitors and I want to have headphones that do the same)

If you want soundstage similar to a classical music performance then Grados are out. They're my fave for jazz, particularly the RS1e, but they're are a horrible choice for soundstage. If you really want to go all out on imaging without sacrificing how lively they sound on jazz you'd have to make other compromises.

Philips X2HR can sound a bit dark at the top end. Not sure how a Macbook reacts to it but I haven't seen anyone complain, that said a lot of people never noticed how Grados sound like tin cans on many high output impedance headphone outputs on speaker amps.

Sennheiser HD800 will have imaging that beats even the K70x series but like them can sound kind of dull yet sharp; on the upside, if you don't mind an amp that will EQ the sound a little (but not by much as when using the same amp on the AKGs), you can use a Darkvoice DV336se to drive it and you get more defined imaging. Problem is the DAC and HPamp aren't portable and this set will be expensive unless you get lucky with used gear.

There's also the Focal Elex but if you're paying full attention to the music it's best used with a good amp.


(not sure what the right audiophile word is, instruments simply sound more defined and real when I play music over my Adam A5 monitors and I want to have headphones that do the same)

Just note that that is helped along by the speakers throwing sound around a room, with soundwaves hitting your whole body and resonating around the room as real instruments would. In short, there's always a compromise with headphones.

At best there's the AKG K1000 but that one's not in production anymore.

Sacrificing soundstage size there's the Audeze LCD-3 but that's not comfortable to wear for long periods unless you have your head on a headrest the entire time, plus it'll need an amp.


- Budget: Not strictly defined. A combined 1000 pounds for the portable amp / dac and headphones seems a reasonable long-term investment / Christmas present for myself, but there's no need to use every last penny of budget when returns in sound quality start to diminish.

Current considerations:

- Based on comfort / music / soundstage the AKG K/Q701's are interesting, but I've read they need power to sound their best, can anyone confirm this using a macbook pro?

You might be able to get away with it on the Q701. Dampening on the driver reduces a bit of the treble and distortion or damping factor issues on lower power, lower quality, possibly high output impedance circuits isn't going to be as drastic.

That said...still not the best option. There's still the fit issue. If your head is too big these kind of hurt, at the very least you need to loosen the headband by putting it on something to stretch it; if your head's too small, the low end really won't be there even on the Q701.


- Sennheiser HD598

Good option for imaging, relatively low power requirements, and comfort if you don't mind not having how the HD25 has a bit of verve in delivering the music.


...HD600 / HD650 (do the latter two sound nice without an amp? I've read mixed reviews on that topic)

The HD650 will sound "nice" in the same sense that people can be nice, ie, it won't scratch your ears; some HD600s can be similar have a short 3500hz peak that can be a bit of a problem.

If you think about it in chick and car terms, the HD650/6XX is who you drive in a Mercedes/Lexus/Genesis with to meet your Mom for Sunday brunch, absolutely zero concerns for that, but depending on what you really like ie what is "nice" to you in broader terms, not exactly the chick that will put her head on your lap (if you know what I mean) to make the most out of how you can hit the apex and powerslide while she does that because hey, you now get paddleshifters in that new Lamborghini or or G-Power tuned BMW M5.


- Beyerdynamic DT880

If you're trying to avoid a headphone that does "Night/Quiet Listening" mode response curve (ie boosted at the top and bottom) then you might want to put this at the bottom of the list.


- Audio Technica ATH AD900

Really rolls off at the bottom end, and more severely if the fit is too loose on you. Think of the ADx00(0)X series as something like a K701 in varying degrees of K701-ness, just that they don't need a lot of power, just low output impedance.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 3:26 PM Post #4 of 11
I'm a fan of Focal Clear- fairly easy to drive, bit weak on subbass and soundstage (its not quite 'in your face' like the 25 but it doesnt create a crazy sound field like the HD800), not too difficult to find sale or secondhand in budget.

Never knew they've started making headphones, I haven't checked on Head-Fi in ages so I only know Focal as a speakers manufacturer. Will have a look at them, thanks for the tip!

If it's a portable unit I'd just take .. and there's no table beside your seat.
Those are some good points, If I leave all of the stuff in the living room I could indeed get some larger equipment in there. That would still leave the requirement for being able to drive them straight from a mac, which indeed would rule out the planar Audeze / HifiMan stuff. I don't mind sacrificing some sound quality as you are right that listening to them will be spoiled to a degree by typing noise and my mind being with work anyway, the main improvement over my HD25 would be comfort as the HD25's really start hurting after an hour or two.

If you want soundstage similar to a classical music performance then Grados are out.
Yeah that's why I haven't included them. I've read a lot of posts of people who love them for rock / jazz and appreciate the direct in your face sound stage. I'm looking for the opposite of that.

If you really want to go all out on imaging without sacrificing how lively they sound on jazz you'd have to make other compromises.
Yeah I get that some sacrifices will have to be made either way, I'm happy to sacrifice some lively sounds if that's the price I have to pay for stellar imaging.

Problem is the DAC and HPamp aren't portable and this set will be expensive unless you get lucky with used gear.
Hehehe, you've got my mind going. A nice tube amp might actually be a nice addition to the living room. I can just put it next to the chair I always sit in and buy a side table to put it on. I'm going to check what the second hand market for headphones is like in the UK. Buying a better quality headphone second hand might just be a great option if I can pick one up somewhere around London.

If you're trying to avoid a headphone that does "Night/Quiet Listening" mode response curve (ie boosted at the top and bottom) then you might want to put this at the bottom of the list.
Good to know! I've read it's one of the more neutral Beyerdynamics, but if that means less V shaped than the rest of their range I'll take them off the list

Really rolls off at the bottom end, and more severely if the fit is too loose on you. Think of the ADx00(0)X series as something like a K701 in varying degrees of K701-ness, just that they don't need a lot of power, just low output impedance.
Yeah I'll take those off as well. And I'll update my first post with the progression in my thinking. Thanks so much for the elaborate comment!
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 4:53 PM Post #5 of 11
Those are some good points, If I leave all of the stuff in the living room I could indeed get some larger equipment in there. That would still leave the requirement for being able to drive them straight from a mac, which indeed would rule out the planar Audeze / HifiMan stuff. I don't mind sacrificing some sound quality as you are right that listening to them will be spoiled to a degree by typing noise and my mind being with work anyway, the main improvement over my HD25 would be comfort as the HD25's really start hurting after an hour or two.

One downside I forgot about, apart from getting loud enough without any obvious clipping or really bad distortion, is that they might sound a bit anemic, so if you need the headphones to play music that will keep you awake, it can be a problem.

That said, you have the HD25. If the sound is fine and mostly your concern about them is the discomfort, have you tried loosening the clamp? Set them on a set of books or any object/s wider than your head for a while, and test them roughly twice a day to check if it's loose enough without being too loose for walking around. It'll wear out the pads but you can always do this on the old pads and then replace them once you get near your preferred setting.


Yeah that's why I haven't included them. I've read a lot of posts of people who love them for rock / jazz and appreciate the direct in your face sound stage. I'm looking for the opposite of that.

HD650 or HD6XX are good options. The imaging though will barely improve on the HD25 in terms of absolute size. Cymbals and percussion will move to the back and center a little bit but that's mostly it.

There's the Philips X2HR but I don't really recommend them since they're not as easy to service as Sennheisers for which you can order spare parts.


Yeah I get that some sacrifices will have to be made either way, I'm happy to sacrifice some lively sounds if that's the price I have to pay for stellar imaging.

There's the LCD-2 Classic, but the compromises will be in weight and price.


Hehehe, you've got my mind going. A nice tube amp might actually be a nice addition to the living room. I can just put it next to the chair I always sit in and buy a side table to put it on. I'm going to check what the second hand market for headphones is like in the UK. Buying a better quality headphone second hand might just be a great option if I can pick one up somewhere around London.

Downside to the HD800 though is how they'll sound straight out of the laptop. Imaging's going to be there but you might find it to be totally boring. Not in a "laid back" boring way, but more of going "I am soooooooooooooo bored in this class" and the professor writing with chalk sometimes scratches on the board producing that screeching sound.

Basically, whatever you get, there's always going to be some kind of compromise.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 5:14 PM Post #6 of 11
That said, you have the HD25. If the sound is fine and mostly your concern about them is the discomfort, have you tried loosening the clamp?
It's not the clamp but the fact that they are on-ear and therefore push my ears back which starts hurting after a while. I've owned them (and used them extensively) for 12 ish years so they should be plenty loose by now.


There's the Philips X2HR but I don't really recommend them since they're not as easy to service as Sennheisers for which you can order spare parts.
Spare parts are great and I am looking for something that'll last 10-15 years at least. I've recabled my HD25's a few years back and swapped the pads a couple of times now and as a result they still feel like new.

There's the LCD-2 Classic, but the compromises will be in weight and price.
Good shout, I'll include those. 600-700 pounds ish is not too bad

Downside to the HD800 though is how they'll sound straight out of the laptop.
The tricky thing about the HD800 will be finding one second hand in the UK in order to save some money. That being said I did just order a B stock Schiit Jotunheim + DAC from the one UK reseller of Schiit so I guess I got lucky there.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 11:48 PM Post #7 of 11
The only thing that comes to mind is the Phillips Fidelio X2 / X1, but they certainly aren't neutral, and I'm not sure how well they respond to EQ. I really enjoyed the HD 25 while I had it. Another somewhat similar sounding can is the Hifiman Edition S. Incredibly easy to drive, and a very wide Soundstage - Actually caught me off guard. The earpads aren't huge, but unless you have bigger or monster ears, they should surround them. The headband is fragile, but it will be fine so long as you don't try to overly bend it. If you're interested in planar magnetics, the Brainwavz Alara is pretty easy to drive and sounds pretty good. The headband is a bit on the large side though.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 11:55 PM Post #8 of 11
It's not the clamp but the fact that they are on-ear and therefore push my ears back which starts hurting after a while. I've owned them (and used them extensively) for 12 ish years so they should be plenty loose by now.

That's still got something to do with the clamp since they're pushing your earlobes to fold.

Since you've had them 12yrs any further loosening might make them too loose to use while moving. Try moving them forward - that's how I wear my headphones, including Grados.
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The tricky thing about the HD800 will be finding one second hand in the UK in order to save some money. That being said I did just order a B stock Schiit Jotunheim + DAC from the one UK reseller of Schiit so I guess I got lucky there.

You could still get lucky, who knows.
 

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Dec 12, 2019 at 11:09 AM Post #9 of 11
I would not run a HD 600 without an amp. It will sound ok but it gets much much better with a good amp.

The HD 25 is remarkably good, it also benefits from a good amp. I had a magic moment recently when I ran one off my RME ADI-2 playing some SACD rips and some high rate PCM samples...

If you like Sennheisers (not that HD 25 is so representative because it is brighter than the house sound) then the Audeze LCD-2C is certainly a good choice. It is also a lot easier to drive than the HD 600.
 
Dec 15, 2019 at 3:31 PM Post #10 of 11
So, in the end I decided to drop the unamped requirement because my Schiit Jotunheim is surprisingly portable, which means that carrying it up and down the stairs is not a huge pain. In order to choose a pair of headphones from all the suggestions I took advantage of the fact that there's a nice headphone shop about two hours away from my house. Here are my thoughts on the headphones I tried during the 2 hours I was there:

Sennheiser HD600 - nice, but not the improvement over the HD25 I was looking for
Audeze LCD classic - Really neat headphones, I can see why everybody loves the bass on these when I listened to a drum solo (the beginning of the conclusion bit of Keith Jarrett's Survivors Suite album). However, I found them heavy during the 15 minutes I listened to them and couldn't see myself wearing them for 2 hours on end.
Beyerdynamic T1 - Didn't sound right to my ears, slightly bass-heavy
Grado RS1 - Nice headphones, however I felt that the highs were too present, especially when listening to a track with slightly finicky percussion (Joanna Newsom's Good Intentions Paving Company) this became quite obnoxious. Also the soundstage wasn't great (which someone already mentioned)
HifiMan Edition X - Sound-wise really good, however my ears touched the inside of the ear-pads continuously whilst I listened, which prohibited me from enjoying them as I was constantly distracted. Also the build quality didn't feel up to par with the other headphones I tried
Focal Clear - Great headphones and ones I considered for quite a while. In terms of sound-signature they sounded neutral to me, definitely the best of the rest
Sennheiser HD800s - the ones I ended up getting in the end. Incredible sound stage, nice and neutral sound, really comfy and lightweight (goooo plastic!) and a massive leap up from my HD25's. I've been listening to them for a couple of days now, and so far I'm really happy with my purchase. The biggest differences I'm noticing are:
1. Instruments sound much more realistic than my HD25, flutes have an airy sound, you can hear the friction of the bow against the strings in Cello's, Timpani have notes (instead of an undefined bang), vibrato in voices is much easier to pick up
2. Sound-stage
3. separation of instruments - I listen to a lot of late romantic repertoire and early 20th century repertoire (Mahler, Schönberg, Ives, Debussy etc.), i.e. the stuff that features massive orchestras. Because of the better separation of instruments it's much, much easier to follow counterpoint, and by simply listening to music I'm noticing small nuances that I never knew were there (for instance I was listening to the final movement of Mahler's 3rd symphony this morning and noticed that in the lovely tremolo in the strings and melody in the brass section towards the end there's some counterpoint in the brass which I've never noticed because my HD25 just cluttered the brass instruments together)
4. Details are not in your face - the problem I have with detailed headphones (I owned some Etymotic IEM's in the past that were very bad in this regard) is that they boost treble and push details in your face that I never notice in actual concerts. What I really like about the HD800 is that the detail is there, but in a way that sounds realistic rather than the feeling I had with the Etymotic IEM's where I felt I was listening to music through a magnifying glass

So I ended up breaking my budget and half of the requirements I set out at the beginning of this thread, but I'm probably the happier for it. The one thing I'm surprised by is how much difference there still is even in more expensive headphones (apart from the HD800s and Focal Clear's which to me sounded very similar)
 
Dec 15, 2019 at 4:09 PM Post #11 of 11
I personally own the Philips fidelio x1 and x2hr, and a set of senheisser hd599.

I have big ears and the x1 and x2hr fit me better for long listening sessions but you will feel them like a warm hug on your head due to their weight.

Senheisser is much lighter and is like titanium glasses, you forget you were them if it wasn't for my big ears touching the ear pads.

I can both drive with an iPad, phone, computer, little dap, enz enz but the Phillips improves with some more power but is quite good on low end sources.

Soundstage goes to the Phillips in with, but instrument placement is closer by but more accurate on the hd599

X2hr can be a bit bas heavy (darker sounding or warm) but with greath detail.

Hd599 is a little better instrument seperation but not by much and a little bit more detail is the mid to high but lack some detail in low compared to the x2hr.

Pure on sound I would use my hd599 for classical music but as it stands fit is important too I would still take my x2hr.

I can't speak for the hd600 but I guess that would be a amazing option compared with a little dac/amp for the sound stage and neutrality you are looking for.
 

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