[arnyk]

  So, here's my take on the most pervasive "reasons" why vinyl is so attractive to some (many?). Not always "rational", but I'm tossing these out there for further debate.
 
1. Nostalgia. Retro-cool factor of TTs and vinyl.
2. Vinyl playback (like tubed amps) tends to produce low-order harmonic distortion, which is apparently much less objectionable than high-order harmonic distortion.
3. Tactile and olfactory pleasure centers in our brain are better stimulated than with CDs. The "ritual" theory of vinyl: handling the LP, positioning the tonearm on the disc, jacket art, etc.
 
All of these (and more) likely stimulate the emotional centers of the human brain, especially the ventral tegmental area (source of dopamine) and perhaps even the amygdala (processes fear and emotional memories). Perhaps CDs don't stimulate these as much as vinyl, in some individuals.

 
(2) is an audiophile  myth.  Any nonlinearity that produces low-order distortion also creates aharmonic (that means non-harmonic) IM. 
 
The low order harmonics are at the same frequencies as the harmonics that are naturally generated by the musical instrument and are thus masked and are thus relatively hard to hear.
 
The IM products fall at all sorts of odd frequencies all over the audio band, are far less likely to be masked, and are likely to sound ugly.
 
You can't have one without the other unless you are listening to music composed of a single pure tone - sort of like listening to a test oscillator or a theremin. 
 
(1) and (3) are not technical effects but instead are about preference, and of course that is up to you.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

pretty quiet on the western front here. what happened?

 

[CanadianMaestro]

yoo hoo...JD...are you there?

 

[Steve Eddy]

yoo hoo...JD...are you there?

Apparently not. Wanna go grab a bite to eat?

se

 

[CanadianMaestro]

Apparently not. Wanna go grab a bite to eat?

se

I can see you already have eaten...or fed.
 
Steven Spielberg, where are you? It's time for another sequel to Jaws.

 

[Steve Eddy]

I can see you already have eaten...or fed.

Steven Spielberg, where are you? It's time for another sequel to Jaws.

That was just an appetizer.

se

 

[Exacoustatowner]

I'm the last person to tell people what they should enjoy listening to. My personal benchmark is live acoustic performance whether it be instrumental, vocal or a mix of the two.
I grew up in the era of records, and even owned 8 track and cassettes. In the OLD days Stereo Review, etc, used to publish information on frequency response, S/N, %THD as well as the venerable WOW and Flutter. There were real differences between different turntables and they would extoll the virtues of the finest and smoothest turntables. We expected and heard hiss, rumble, and snap crackle and pop, and wow and flutter. Dolby noise reduction and the more advanced DBX compander/Expanders were quite exciting. Then came compact disc and the best of the analog machines were orders of magnitude worse on all the measurements they liked to toss around. The best records and players are still limited in S/N and I see Pro LP folk even saying-stay away from headphones! There were absolutely some "harsh" CD players in the early days. My first was a lucky purchase- the Kyocera DA1. Smooth sound-just loved it. Several mid range replacements were a disappointment. But I'm happy with my current units.
 
 In my two San Francisco Symphony visits in the last week, I heard no perceivable snap, crackle, or pop when Garrick Ohlsson was playing Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto #2, or Prelude in C sharp Minor- neither did I hear any during the two different conductor's with Beethoven's Fifth. I do not hear the so called digital problems when playing back a well mastered CD or SACD- for me it provides the closest experience I can get to being there. So for me, CD/SACD wins.
That does not make those who prefer vinyl "wrong"- I just have different criteria.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

Respectfully, I have no problem with loving vinyl. And nowhere here did I read anybody putting down anybody else's musical  preferences. I just have a big problem with sweeping statements like some that were made here (and elsewhere) to the effect that certain "old LPs" are "superior to all the CDs X has heard". Or the refusal to acknowledge THD measurements showing clearly that digital media have far far lower distortion than vinyl. Heck, i listen to vinyl. I like it. But that's not the aim of this thread, to decide whose preferences are "better". I hope this clarifies the issues we tried to highlight here.
 
And the rib-jabbing is all in good fun. We all develop a Teflon-coat sooner or later, for the better, I think.
 
If vinyl is a warm hug, then digital is a firm handshake. But neither medium is flawless.
 
p.s. Edit: You have good taste in music.

 

 

[Exacoustatowner]

Respectfully, I have no problem with loving vinyl. And nowhere here did I read anybody putting down anybody else's musical  preferences. I just have a big problem with sweeping statements like some that were made here (and elsewhere) to the effect that certain "old LPs" are "superior to all the CDs X has heard". Or the refusal to acknowledge THD measurements showing clearly that digital media have far far lower distortion than vinyl. Heck, i listen to vinyl. I like it. But that's not the aim of this thread, to decide whose preferences are "better". I hope this clarifies the issues we tried to highlight here.

And the rib-jabbing is all in good fun. We all develop a Teflon-coat sooner or later, for the better, I think.

If vinyl is a warm hug, then digital is a firm handshake. But neither medium is flawless.

p.s. Edit: You have good taste in music.  

Bravo Maestro! Well said and back atcha

 

[old tech]

Don't know how many of you guys venture to the Steve Hoffman forum. It is an excellent site in regard to information on various albums, releases, what to look out for etc.

However, it is a very much vinylphile site. I have no problem with preferences but god there is a lot of pseudoscience and myths perpetuated by many of their members. If you challenge any of them to prove their claims of vinyl superiority outside of subjective preferences, they come at you like attack dogs with more myths. It is like challenging creationists.

I have seen put logical and cogent arguments why vinyl does not have the resolution of 16bit digital, but then they say dynamic range and signal to noise are not valid measures. Asked what are then valid measures, the responses typically are along the lines of your ears tell you that, or that it cannot be measured or that science has not yet found a way to measure it (really, after over 100 years of audio science). Once you get on top of their fallacious appeals, the thread mysteriously disappears, but the threads espousing the irrational vinyl arguments never are.

They worship this guy called Fremer as the authority of the supremacy of vinyl. I looked him up. He runs this pro vinyl website which would make a flat earth theorist blush. So much nonsense, cables, vinyl etc. I actually thought it was a prank.

I like vinyl. Still play it. But is it some sort of inferiority complex which causes vinylphiles to make objective claims of superiority when they are easily refuted, rather than just being comfortable with their subjective preferences? You ask them for one metric backing their claims and all you get is a personal attack.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

oldtech:  Let the vinylists have their stew. Human nature, really. Defending what one loves to the bitter end, even if it means defying/denying the facts. Don't fume about it. Not a question of who's right or wrong. Me, I prefer to let the music do its thing and enjoy the music. Vinyl or digital.

 

[Steve Eddy]

As long as they don't make objective claims they can't support, people's subjective preferences should be left alone.

se

 

[old tech]

oldtech:  Let the vinylists have their stew. Human nature, really. Defending what one loves to the bitter end, even if it means defying/denying the facts. Don't fume about it. Not a question of who's right or wrong. Me, I prefer to let the music do its thing and enjoy the music. Vinyl or digital.

 


Cheers. Not really fuming about it and I can respect one's subjective preferences. It is annoying though when people state a subjective preference as an objective fact and then when asked to back their claims either, provide appeals to well known pseudoscience or myths or, say the objective measures are invalid because they either measure the wrong things or that it cannot be measured or, most annoyingly say your stereo or ears are not up to it. The only other people I've come across like this are astrologists and creationists.

 

[LNuneek]

I don't have an audiophile reason for liking vinyl. I like the experience of it. The big covers, the labels on the actual record, the physicality of the medium, watching the vinyl spin, looking at the light shine on the side of record platter (Technics 1210 here), and for some reason I'm more likely to listen to a whole album straight all the way through with vinyl. With other mediums I'm too tempted to skip tracks all the time. 
 
Vinyl is also the best thing in the world if you are a Hip Hop producer. Having that physicality to manipulate the record right there and to be able to needle drop wherever is priceless.
 
The only thing that I really hate about vinyl is skipping. It pisses me off to no end when that happens. It completely ruins the experience.
 
I guess I have no business posting in here cause nothing I said was really "rational." Oh well 

 

[Steve Eddy]

I guess I have no business posting in here cause nothing I said was really "rational." Oh well 

The subject is rather oxymoronic, but your post was certainly within the spirit of the thread.

Thanks!

se