[CanadianMaestro]

   
Yes but when he spins them backwards he can clearly hear Paul saying "CD is dead. CD is dead."

even at 78 rpm 

 

[Gr8Desire]

  Gr8Desire: Very well expressed. 

 
I suspect many audio enthusiasts desire "pleasant" sound. Not necessarily "truthful" sound (truthful to the source -- i.e. artists' intent). That, to my biased sense of musical repro, is the essence of the vinyl vs. digital debate.

 
I am good with the idea of 'pleasant versus accurate'.  The problem is: so many audiophiles insist on no EQ and no other alterations to the source content. They demand 'flat' and unaltered. The issue with vinyl: 'flat' and unaltered has never been achievable or desirable.

If we can accept that flat does not apply to vinyl, then why not just go 100% digital to ultimately look for a pleasant sound. Countless processing attributes can be changed which far greater dynamic headroom and frequency response latitude to find the elusive 'pleasant result'.  Not only that, these  attributes can be varied for each different piece of content you encounter.
 
If you could achieve a recognizable pleasant sound with a one vinyl source, when you change to a different recording, one of the crucial attributes will be different and the pleasant result will be gone...

"Rationalization for loving vinyl" might be a better title for this thread. 

 

[CanadianMaestro]

Respectfully -- there are digital players that, when properly synergized with other hi-quality gear, will playback files with an organic presence that resembles analog vinyl, without sacrificing resolution. Not kidding. So, one can have both cakes and indulge. I'm not referring at all to measurements or EQ'ing. Only to what I hear (my signature..). I'm not denigrating anybody for seeking "pleasant" sound over "honest" sound. Heck, I think we all do it. Why not? But I'm not convinced that vinyl yields even the most pleasant sound. I am pretty convinced that, if I seek max transparency (yes, including all the warts, if they're there in the recording), with or without musicality, then digital is where I have derived the most satisfaction for that. And no, max transparency does not always = clinicality or brightness.
 
cheers -- time to zzzz off into la-la land in the digital ether.....with maybe a TINY MINISCULE touch of vinyl.....

 

[arnyk]

   
Perhaps it's your attitude?  There are plenty of people I enjoy having a spirited debate with but your comments are just tiresome and looking through your posts in general make me think "troll".  I have complete respect for people who take the time to debunk spurious claims and share research with good intent but you seem to have taken it to a new level of personal crusade which is quite unpleasant.

I have to admit that a total lack of self-consciousness as shown above is both amusing in children and appalling in an adult.
 
I'll bet money that you don't realize that the post above is:
 
(1) A personal attack
 
(2) Free of any relevant audio content
 
(3) A great example of exactly what you are accusing me of - a troll.

 

[arnyk]

  Respectfully -- there are digital players that, when properly synergized with other hi-quality gear, will playback files with organic presence that resembles analog vinyl, without sacrificing resolution. Not kidding. So, one can have both cakes and indulge. I'm not referring at all to measurements or EQ'ing. Only to what I hear (my signature..). I'm not denigrating anybody for seeking "pleasant" sound over "honest" sound. Heck, I think we all do it. Why not? But I'm not convinced that vinyl yields even the most pleasant sound. I am pretty convinced that, if I seek max transparency (yes, including all the warts, if they're there in the recording), with or without musicality, then digital is where I have derived the most satisfaction for that. And no, max transparency does not always = clinicality or brightness.
 
cheers -- time to zzzz off into la-la land in the digital ether.....with maybe a TINY MINISCULE touch of vinyl.....

 
I was unaware that audio contaminated with the massive audible noise and distortion that is both inherent and objectively demonstrable in any vinyl LP playback has  "Organic Presence". Well maybe it does. To me "Organic Presence" reminds me of what dogs are prone to leave on sidewalks.

 

[safulop]

   
 
Classic move-the-goalposts argument. Differences have now been found, but are being dismissed.
 
The alleged results appear to be meaningless anyway, because no reliable standard of performance seems to have been established.

I wasn't making any argument at all, just showing some spectrum results that should be of interest.  Some have suggested that "anything above 12 kHz on vinyl is mostly noise and distortion", that's clearly not the case, although there is indeed some noise and/or distortion above 13 kHz in the plots.   That's all, folks.  I don't know what results I'm supposed to have alleged.
 
By the way it was indeed the same physical cartridge that made the recordings within the span of a couple of weeks, so variation is definitely due to changes of alignment and/or tonearm/table.

 

[arnyk]

  I wasn't making any argument at all, just showing some spectrum results that should be of interest.  Some have suggested that "anything above 12 kHz on vinyl is mostly noise and distortion", that's clearly not the case...

 
Actually, the evidence above sheds absolutely no light on the issue of whether the content at any frequency on any recording is noise, distortion, or music.
 
The reason is that no reliable reference that we can analyze to determine what the recording should contain seems to have been provided.
 
Without a reliable reference, it is all just speculation.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

   
I was unaware that audio contaminated with the massive audible noise and distortion that is both inherent and objectively demonstrable in any vinyl LP playback has  "Organic Presence". Well maybe it does. To me "Organic Presence" reminds me of what dogs are prone to leave on sidewalks.

 
Some of us have somehow learned to listen through the noise and distortion on LPs. It's still distortion, but perhaps the term "good distortion" comes to mind. Let's face it, no recording is 100% natural and 0.000% distorted. At least I haven't seen/heard any recording or gear piece with zero distortion. Besides, when the music is that good, despite the medium/playback system's faults, I just prefer to hear the music, distorted or not. Vinyl or digital.
 
cheers

 

[arnyk]

   
Some of us have somehow learned to listen through the noise and distortion on LPs. It's still distortion, but perhaps the term "good distortion" comes to mind. Let's face it, no recording is 100% natural and 0.000% distorted. At least I haven't seen/heard any recording or gear piece with zero distortion. Besides, when the music is that good, despite the medium/playback system's faults, I just prefer to hear the music, distorted or not. Vinyl or digital.
 

 
All of us learned how to listen though the noise and distortion on LPs as long as they were the only alternative.  Some of us had occasional access to high speed analog master tapes and noticed that they were sonically quite a bit better sounding.
 
Many of us recognized the evidence of our ears that finally told us that the distortion in LPs was no longer being forced on us and it was not our only option.
 
The new digital order took distortion down to inaudible levels in the recording medium itself.
 
Digital masters had existed for about 10 years and they also avoided the distortion in high speed analog master tapes. They had already become the new standard for cutting LPs in  many cases.
 
Therefore by simply bypassing Vinyl, distortion could be vastly reduced or virtually eliminated by simply properly re-recording existing master recordings on CDs which was done with general great success, but unfortunately a few unavoidable slip-ups.
 
There are a lot of logical problems with the idea being presented above. It shows a common failing of audiophile arguments of many kinds for everything from magic cables to vinyl: A lack of appreciation of the concept of quantification.  
 
As has been shown, the nonlinear distortion inherent in the LP format ranges from about 0.5% at middle frequencies and levels up around 30% above 10 KHz. It increases audibly as levels go above average reference levels.  The CD format has 0.01% or less distortion over its entire frequency band and at all levels.  
 
To an audiophile with no formal education in audio,  numbers like 1% and 30% are just numbers, but to people who work in this area technically, they range from mediocre to horrific.  In contrast the distortion in the CD format is below 0.01% which is unconditionally inaudible.  Therefore the argument that everything has distortion so it doesn't matter is false because the actual comparison range from audible to horrific as opposed to inaudible.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

Christ. Lighten up.

se

 
 

   
All of us learned how to listen though the noise and distortion on LPs as long as they were the only alternative.  Some of us had occasional access to high speed analog master tapes and noticed that they were sonically quite a bit better sounding.
 
Many of us recognized the evidence of our ears that finally told us that the distortion in LPs was no longer being forced on us and it was not our only option.
 
The new digital order took distortion down to inaudible levels in the recording medium itself.
 
Digital masters had existed for about 10 years and they also avoided the distortion in high speed analog master tapes. They had already become the new standard for cutting LPs in  many cases.
 
Therefore by simply bypassing Vinyl, distortion could be vastly reduced or virtually eliminated by simply properly re-recording existing master recordings on CDs which was done with general great success, but unfortunately a few unavoidable slip-ups.
 
There are a lot of logical problems with the idea being presented above. It shows a common failing of audiophile arguments of many kinds for everything from magic cables to vinyl: A lack of appreciation of the concept of quantification.  
 
As has been shown, the nonlinear distortion inherent in the LP format ranges from about 0.5% at middle frequencies and levels up around 30% above 10 KHz. It increases audibly as levels go above average reference levels.  The CD format has 0.01% or less distortion over its entire frequency band and at all levels.  
 
To an audiophile with no formal education in audio,  numbers like 1% and 30% are just numbers, but to people who work in this area technically, they range from mediocre to horrific.  In contrast the distortion in the CD format is below 0.01% which is unconditionally inaudible.  Therefore the argument that everything has distortion so it doesn't matter is false because the actual comparison range from audible to horrific as opposed to inaudible.

 

Christ. Lighten up.

se

ditto on the steve eddy response earlier.

 

[cjl]

It was long known that above 10-12 KHz both analog tape and the LP were in deep trouble that couldn't be helped due to the inherent limitations of the technologies, and that is what spurred the development of digital. Digital doesn't have audible problems unless they are forcibly induced by bad mastering.

Of course LPs can go above 12kHz. Look at the CD-4 quadraphonic records - to encode the 4 channels of audio, they required frequency response out to 50kHz or so, and they wouldn't have worked at all if LPs were actually limited to 12kHz.
 
Of course, just because LPs can reproduce >20kHz doesn't mean that it is audible.

 

[judgmentday]

I bet you wouldntneve be able to distinguish between an LP and a 16/44 needle drop of the same LP.

se

I can distinguish from the next room the brightness of your digital recordings.  I bet the needle scratching your ass will sound less bright.

 

[judgmentday]

   
Hallucinogenic vinyl?

Not at all.  Good vinyl has reality to it; DACs attempt to reconstruct a representation of a real analog signal and you know it.

 

[judgmentday]

 
yeah, we certainly aren't dogs or bats.

Perhaps not, but dogs or bats cannot enjoy music.  The cannot distinguish from a cymbal, violin or upper bass note.

 

[judgmentday]

   
Yes but when he spins them backwards he can clearly hear Paul saying "CD is dead. CD is dead."

No need to do that. CD is long gone and dead. I use them to pickup my dog's poop.